Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?

[JonC]

Nope.

Paul uses the Aorist in his argument, pointing to a single event (ie. Adam's sin), not multiple events (ie. everyone sinning in and of themselves). Second, "through" is translating δια + the genitive, and is the proper translation. But, the idea of "through" is instrumental as in death happens because of sin.

Here is Leon Morris' take on it:

The aorist points to one act, the act of Adam; we would expect the present or the imperfect if the apostle were thinking of the continuing sins of all people. Paul says that all sinned in Adam, not in imitating him (cf. Bruce). And it ignores the context with its strong insistence on the sin of one man (not all of us) as the cause of the trouble.

Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Leicester, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press, 1988), 231–232.
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What is more, Paul's argument in v. 18-19 leaves no doubt:

[18] Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:18–19 ESV)
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Whether one calls it "Original Sin" or something else, the historic doctrine of Original Sin is exactly what Paul is detailing here.

The Archangel

I think the difficulty may be that the "Doctrine of Original Sin" is being used to mean different things on this thread. Although Paul does explain that this one act of Adam is indicative of the race he represents, that in Adam we have all sinned - that through this one act mankind were made sinners, this is not the common definition of Original Sin (at least not the definition the OP has engaged with a true human nature and a fallen one).

 

[loDebar]

Quite true, if we die because we sin no babies could die.

That is physical death for babies, according to David

 

[loDebar]

I think the difficulty may be that the "Doctrine of Original Sin" is being used to mean different things on this thread. Although Paul does explain that this one act of Adam is indicative of the race he represents, that in Adam we have all sinned - that through this one act mankind were made sinners, this is not the common definition of Original Sin (at least not the definition the OP has engaged with a true human nature and a fallen one).

It doesn't say in Adam all have sinned, It says In Adam all die
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[JonC]

It doesn't say in Adam all have sinned, It says In Adam all die
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I was referring to Romans 5 where the many "were made sinners". That said, I agree with you. The point is that we are slaves to sin and death.

 

[The Archangel]

I do not hold Limited Atoinement neither Predestination

Neither would Paul contradict scripture Eze.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So where is the explantion needed. ?

You have a lot of explaining to do if you only reference Ezekiel 18:20. What do you do with these passages:

[5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, (Exodus 20:5 ESV, emphasis mine)

[6] The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, [7] keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6–7 ESV, emphasis mine)
​

Ezekiel is not contradicting God Himself. Ezekiel 18:20 makes a wonderful soundbite for your thoughts to find corroboration. However, the context is against your interpretation of this passage as a universal statement. Also, a true biblical theology would view all of scripture, taking into account the verses above, while seeing how scripture fits together as a whole, rather than hanging an entire theology on one soundbite taken from its context.

The Archangel

 

[loDebar]

I was referring to Romans 5 where the many "were made sinners". That said, I agree with you. The point is that we are slaves to sin and death.

Romans, 5 19?

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

YLT has:

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

We were not "poieio " made, to be sinners, we were kathistēmi, ordain, named, appointed sinners

All are not righteous,

 

[loDebar]

You have a lot of explaining to do if you only reference Ezekiel 18:20. What do you do with these passages:

[5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, (Exodus 20:5 ESV, emphasis mine)

[6] The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, [7] keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6–7 ESV, emphasis mine)
​

Ezekiel is not contradicting God Himself. Ezekiel 18:20 makes a wonderful soundbite for your thoughts to find corroboration. However, the context is against your interpretation of this passage as a universal statement. Also, a true biblical theology would view all of scripture, taking into account the verses above, while seeing how scripture fits together as a whole, rather than hanging an entire theology on one soundbite taken from its context.

The Archangel

That is the warnings blessings of Israel to keep the nation pure and in existance until Jesus came ad Saviour.
Physical curses on the conduct not to pollute the blood lines of Israel. See the limits. David's grandmother was Ruth from Moab
It also applies to behavior. Israel had to exist.

God was actually saying the sons are guilty also, (I believe it involved more than worship )
Eze 18:2
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3¶
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasionany more to use this proverb in Israel.

 

[HankD]

It doesn't say in Adam all have sinned, It says In Adam all die.

It does say we all sinned
Romans 5:12
NIV Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned,

All the verbs are aorist - completed action in past time.

We come into this world dead in trespasses and sin.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[HankD]

People kick against the goads that they are born dead in sin and the trespass of Adam because it leaves them without a shred of righteousness NOW OR EVER. Jesus Christ is our one and only hope.

 

[loDebar]

It does say we all sinned
Romans 5:12
NIV Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned,

All the verbs are aorist - completed action in past time.

We come into this world dead in trespasses and sin.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Yes, we did sin, on our own, It is past. we are judged and condemned.
Rejecting original sin does not mean we are without sin, It just question where we got it.

 

[HankD]

Yes, we did sin, on our own, It is past. we are judged and condemned.
Rejecting original sin does not mean we are without sin, It just question where we got it.

In God's reckoning we were there with Adam when he sinned.

That's where we got it and we enter this world condemned.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[The Archangel]

That is the warnings blessings of Israel to keep the nation pure and in existance until Jesus came ad Saviour.
Physical curses on the conduct not to pollute the blood lines of Israel. See the limits. David's grandmother was Ruth from Moab
It also applies to behavior. Israel had to exist.

Are you suggesting the Exodus passages are saying this? The Exodus passages are about a pure bloodline??? Really??!!

God was actually saying the sons are guilty also, (I believe it involved more than worship )
Eze 18:2
What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3¶
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasionany more to use this proverb in Israel.

Well, Ezekiel 18 is discussing a proverb. But, what Ezekiel says about the proverb is important. But, the proverb must be known and understood before any real understanding of 18:5 and 20 is gained. Ezekiel's examples (and there are three) demonstrate that the sins of the father do not condemn the son anymore than the sins of the son condemn the father. In other words, there is plenty of guilt to go around. Specifically, in this context, the statement "the soul who sins shall die" is a call to repentance, instead of being comfortably trapped in a fatalistic quagmire where the sons cannot escape their father's sins, gladly repeating them.

So, it does not mean what you think it means.

The Archangel

 

[loDebar]

It does say everone is guilty but of their own sins, Yes the chapter dors have a call to repentance but is not certainly a parable.
It is a warning from God v1, like the book

All the Law, ceremonial and moral is to sustain Israel as a nation. It is not for salvation nor us as modern non Hebrews.
I applies only to Hebrews between Moses and Jesus.

 

[JonC]

Romans, 5 19?

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

YLT has:

for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

We were not "poieio " made, to be sinners, we were kathistēmi, ordain, named, appointed sinners

All are not righteous,

Exactly. It's a matter of the will, not one's nature. Adam represents one headship (the flesh) and Christ another (the spirit). We are born into Adam (as our representative) and reborn into Christ (again, as our representative). Adam reflects the kind of people who are born into him, and Christ the kind who are born into Him.

The only two natures Scripture offers is "flesh" and "spirit". The "Fall" ensured a physical death which spread to all men - not a spiritual one as we are not born "spiritually alive". Christ saves men out of the bondage of physical death and into spiritual life (which is why Paul bases Christianity on the Resurrection).

 

[loDebar]

well said

 

[HankD]

Again Romans 5:12 includes sin as an element that was "passed" to all.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Had the last phrase been left off then those who deny the sin nature would be correct.
However the verb to sin is aorist (past tense) ALL sinned (past tense) all died (past tense) at the time of the transgression and we are all born condemned..

ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

I know I said I was done with this subject but IMO to deny the sin nature is error.

 

[loDebar]

Again Romans 5:12 includes sin as an element that was "passed" to all.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Had the last phrase been left off then those who deny the sin nature would be correct.
However the verb to sin is aorist (past tense) ALL sinned (past tense) all died (past tense) at the time of the transgression and we are all born condemned..

ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

I know I said I was done with this subject but IMO to deny the sin nature is error.

i believe physical death is because iof Adam, spiritual death is because of sin,
We have the sin nature but it is not inherited. It is all in the past same as we are condemned already

 

[JonC]

Again Romans 5:12 includes sin as an element that was "passed" to all.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Had the last phrase been left off then those who deny the sin nature would be correct.
However the verb to sin is aorist (past tense) ALL sinned (past tense) all died (past tense) at the time of the transgression and we are all born condemned..

ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον

I know I said I was done with this subject but IMO to deny the sin nature is error.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

The verse does not say that sin was passed on, but rather death spread to all men because all sinned.

The idea is not "born a sinner" but that Adam is like all men. Through him death spread because we, like he, sin.

 

[HankD]

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

The verse does not say that sin was passed on, but rather death spread to all men because all sinned.

The idea is not "born a sinner" but that Adam is like all men. Through him death spread because we, like he, sin.

Disagree.

 

[HankD]

i believe physical death is because iof Adam, spiritual death is because of sin,
We have the sin nature but it is not inherited. It is all in the past same as we are condemned already

Past? how long ago? What is the point of inception?