Is Pastor WRONG?

[desertjim]

Hi All, I haven't been on here in a hundred years, but thought I'd run this by you folks.

It's sort of a two-part question involving TWO pastors.

1) One pastor made a special appointment with a Godly man to ask him NOT to ever come to his church again. There was NO reason for it, except that the man knew too much about some of the members of that church.....sort of like where the skeletons were buried. Three or four of the members complained to the pastor, I suppose, but the pastor never did tell the man why he asked him never to come back. Oh yes, the times the man was there everyone was very friendly with him. Actually, the man had been a member of that church a few years before and was on good terms, or so he though, with everyone, but knew a lot about how they had treated the previous pastor. This is the first time I had ever heard of such a thing, and the man is of good report...............except with a few, I guess.

2) So, the man never went back to that church but visited another church where he had visited previously and had a good report with the pastor and the members there. He shared what had happened with the pastor and the pastor informed him that he had never heard any negative remark about him, only positive remarks. The pastor prayed with him and counseled as best he could with him, but told him not to tell anyone else; to just let the Lord handle it. Good advice? Maybe. However, now the man now is wondering about the pastor because or that remark and because the pastor is still affiliating with the church of the offending pastor, attending missionary conferences in the church etc, etc.

So, how do we advise the Godly man about the church he is visiting and considering becoming a member of, inasmuch as he now has doubts about the pastor.

We have prayed about it, but God hasn't yet made it clear what he should do.

Pray about this and make any suggestions that would help me advise this man. I must say that it left me in a quandry about it as well. I know that I would never attend a church pastored by a man who had asked someone not to come back. Apparently, the members had threatened the pastor with leaving or withdrawing support, but the pastor never did ask to hear anything from the man he was banning from his congregation. Odd, isn't it? I don't want to advise him wrongly.

And, like we are to condemn false doctrine, shouldn't this pastor be exposed for what he is?

In His Service,
Jim

 

[Mexdeaf]

If he truly is a godly man of good report, he shouldn't have a problem finding a third church to attend.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Are you a member of either church? Have you heard both sides of the situation or are you getting this from only one source? How is this about false doctrine?

 

[desertjim]

If he truly is a godly man of good report, he shouldn't have a problem finding a third church to attend.

Ever been to Deming, NM ??

 

[desertjim]

Are you a member of either church? Have you heard both sides of the situation or are you getting this from only one source? How is this about false doctrine?

1) I know both sides of the story, but don't really know how they managed to get the pastor to react as he did.

2) No, not false doctrine. I was comparing exposing false doctrine to exposing faulty pastors. That is just how I feel about it and I could be wrong and would not want to advise based on my feelings alone.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Ever been to Deming, NM ??

LOL! Been through. Gotcha- he's a pig in a poke.

 

[mactx]

If the Lord has not made clear how to handle it the answer is clear. Don't.
Let God work it out in his own way and time.
If the man is no longer at the first church then it is no longer his concern.
If he is uncomfortable at the second, hen he needs to either suck it up and get over it until the Lord shows him something or find a different church. Perhaps he is uncomfortable because the Lord has called him some place else and he has not caught on yet.

Once we turn a thing over to God we are to let it go until he does something, not keep picking it up and worrying about it.

 

[annsni]

When there is church discipline, the church isn't always told all of the details because it then gets into a gossip situation. So I bet there is way more to the story than even you know.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ever been to Deming, NM ??

I am just a hop, skip and a jump from you in Alamogordo.

 

[desertjim]

When there is church discipline, the church isn't always told all of the details because it then gets into a gossip situation. So I bet there is way more to the story than even you know.

There isn't, but I wish there was!

I know the pastor there and liked (past tense) him. It's all I can do not to expose him for what he is, but he's God's man and the work there is God's work.
It certainly has looked like God hasn't even visited that church in a number of years, so maybe it isn't His work, but I still pray for it, just in caseraying:/

 

[Don]

I'm curious: you keep talking about exposing this pastor (the one who asked the man not to come back to the church, I think) for "what he really is."

What is he?

 

[desertjim]

I'm curious: you keep talking about exposing this pastor (the one who asked the man not to come back to the church, I think) for "what he really is."

What is he?

Good question. I posted to get some feedback. I already told you that I would never attend a church pastored by such a man. What do you think about him?
Do you know any pastor that would do such a thing? Would sit under him? I know the man and I would never have thought he would handle anything in such a manner. We all err and perhaps he had a lapse in spiritual leading or got in the flesh. However, a pastor should be held to a higher standard. Does he handle God's work in such a manner as a general rule? Who knows?


In His Grip,

Jim

 

[Don]

Good question. I posted to get some feedback. I already told you that I would never attend a church pastored by such a man. What do you think about him?
Do you know any pastor that would do such a thing? Would sit under him? I know the man and I would never have thought he would handle anything in such a manner. We all err and perhaps he had a lapse in spiritual leading or got in the flesh. However, a pastor should be held to a higher standard. Does he handle God's work in such a manner as a general rule? Who knows?


In His Grip,

Jim

Do I know any pastor that would do such a thing? As in, have several of his church members come to him and tell him something, and he acted upon it? Why, yes, I know a lot of people, both pastors and non-pastors, who would do such a thing. Most people have a tendency, especially when taking up the offenses of others, to "shoot first and ask questions later."

Did this pastor ask the man about the situation the pastor's church members told him about? That part of the story seems to be missing. If the pastor simply followed the request of the church members, without asking the man for his side of the story, then yes, there's a problem there. Would I continue to follow this pastor? I would talk to the pastor, ask him if he just shut the man out or if he confirmed that the stories were true, and tell the pastor my opinion about the situation; and see what the response was.

I tend to follow Matthew 18 when it comes to such matters: If I have a problem with a person, I take it to that person, and try to talk it out. If they won't hear me, then I try again with witnesses. If he still won't hear me, then I take it before the church; or, in the case of a personal matter, I wash my hands of him.

Yes, we should hold pastors to a higher standard; but we should never, never, never forget that they are simply men, still subject to the weaknesses of these frail, corrupt, fleshly bodies. A momentary lapse is something that could be addressed, possibly worked out, hopefully forgiven; don't know if I'd shoot the horse because it stumbled over a rock. Think I'd actually make sure the leg was broken first.

 

[desertjim]

Do I know any pastor that would do such a thing? As in, have several of his church members come to him and tell him something, and he acted upon it? Why, yes, I know a lot of people, both pastors and non-pastors, who would do such a thing. Most people have a tendency, especially when taking up the offenses of others, to "shoot first and ask questions later."

Did this pastor ask the man about the situation the pastor's church members told him about? That part of the story seems to be missing. If the pastor simply followed the request of the church members, without asking the man for his side of the story, then yes, there's a problem there. Would I continue to follow this pastor? I would talk to the pastor, ask him if he just shut the man out or if he confirmed that the stories were true, and tell the pastor my opinion about the situation; and see what the response was.


I tend to follow Matthew 18 when it comes to such matters: If I have a problem with a person, I take it to that person, and try to talk it out. If they won't hear me, then I try again with witnesses. If he still won't hear me, then I take it before the church; or, in the case of a personal matter, I wash my hands of him.

Yes, we should hold pastors to a higher standard; but we should never, never, never forget that they are simply men, still subject to the weaknesses of these frail, corrupt, fleshly bodies. A momentary lapse is something that could be addressed, possibly worked out, hopefully forgiven; don't know if I'd shoot the horse because it stumbled over a rock. Think I'd actually make sure the leg was broken first.

Apparently three or four did. Those are about the only ones left from the original church. It's very small.

No, he said the pastor would NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING ABOUT IT other than to ask him not to return. That didn't seem like the man at all, but who knows what a man will do to keep his job or keep his congregation, when three or four members make up the majority......especially the controlling majority.

I agree about the horse, but if he refused to get up and DIDN'T have a broken let, I'd still shoot him :laugh:. In other words, if this isn't made right, the pastor is wrong all the way.

BTW, he wrote the pastor and thanked him for allowing God to use him in his search because he was searching for God's will about a church, and when one door is closed another is will be opened. Said he enclosed a check and told him to treat himself and his wife to a nice dinner, or donate it to the missionaries. Don't think that he has ever heard from the pastor since.

He's still searching and wondering about the pastor who is still cooperating with the offending pastor. Since I have never experienced anything like this, I'm not sure how to advise, other than suggesting a lot of prayer and reading God's word. As an IFB, I know we are to be separated from a lot of folks and my judgement would be to separate from the offensive pastor, but I don't know everything.

In His Service,

Jim

 

[faithgirl46]

If the Lord has not made clear how to handle it the answer is clear. Don't.
Let God work it out in his own way and time.
If the man is no longer at the first church then it is no longer his concern.
If he is uncomfortable at the second, hen he needs to either suck it up and get over it until the Lord shows him something or find a different church. Perhaps he is uncomfortable because the Lord has called him some place else and he has not caught on yet.

Once we turn a thing over to God we are to let it go until he does something, not keep picking it up and worrying about it.

I concur let God handle it.

 

[Don]

Apparently three or four did. Those are about the only ones left from the original church. It's very small.

Those three or four did what?

No, he said the pastor would NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING ABOUT IT other than to ask him not to return. That didn't seem like the man at all, but who knows what a man will do to keep his job or keep his congregation, when three or four members make up the majority......especially the controlling majority.

See my comment at the bottom.

I agree about the horse, but if he refused to get up and DIDN'T have a broken let, I'd still shoot him :laugh:.

:laugh: Point taken!!!

BTW, he wrote the pastor and thanked him for allowing God to use him in his search because he was searching for God's will about a church, and when one door is closed another is will be opened. Said he enclosed a check and told him to treat himself and his wife to a nice dinner, or donate it to the missionaries. Don't think that he has ever heard from the pastor since.

He's still searching and wondering about the pastor who is still cooperating with the offending pastor. Since I have never experienced anything like this, I'm not sure how to advise, other than suggesting a lot of prayer and reading God's word. As an IFB, I know we are to be separated from a lot of folks and my judgement would be to separate from the offensive pastor, but I don't know everything.

In His Service,

Jim

Everything you just wrote points to you taking the man at his word; have YOU talked to that pastor? Or any of the other people involved?

One of my jobs over the years was as a "security" guy; one of the things we learned was interviewing all the witnesses at a scene. No two witnesses had exactly the same story. They each told us what happened the way they saw or remembered it. Understand?

 

[nodak]

OK, gonna take a leap here, but this might be something those not part of NM churches won't get.

There does seem to be a sort of blacklist that has gone the circuit. People can get on it for some things that need to be disciplined, for sure. But apparently they can get on it for just having a difference of opinion with certain in leadership. Not major doctrinal disagreements, just more the you say tomato I say tomahto type thing.

Now add in a serious lack of alternative Baptist churches in some areas, and high gas prices making driving difficult, and you've got a big problem.

So my honest dead level advice to this gentleman would sadly be to consider attending a non Baptist church if he can find a fairly good one there.

Once he is on the blacklist they will freeze you out wherever you go.

My personal suspicion--and it is only that!!!--is that somebody studied a certain church growth movement book a while back that basically taught that dissenters should leave or die BUT also seemed to imply that folks cannot leave a church and go to another one without permission of the first pastor.

UH, no, if your heart is right with God and not a major discipline thing, just walk away even if it means the whole denomination is off limits for a while. I've known of some that moved several hundred miles out of NM and this sort of thing followed them.

But on the upside, while NM has some really bad actors around it also has some of the very best leaders in the world, in my not so humble opinion.

 

[desertjim]

OK, gonna take a leap here, but this might be something those not part of NM churches won't get.

There does seem to be a sort of blacklist that has gone the circuit. People can get on it for some things that need to be disciplined, for sure. But apparently they can get on it for just having a difference of opinion with certain in leadership. Not major doctrinal disagreements, just more the you say tomato I say tomahto type thing.

Never heard of such a thing.

Now add in a serious lack of alternative Baptist churches in some areas, and high gas prices making driving difficult, and you've got a big problem.

Doctrine is one thing, neither of us will compromise on. I might accept a modern Bible Version (depending on which one, but NEVER on doctrine).

So my honest dead level advice to this gentleman would sadly be to consider attending a non Baptist church if he can find a fairly good one there.

Neither he nor I would compromise on that. I wouldn't even attend most non IFB churches. They are just too liberal and ecumenical.

Once he is on the blacklist they will freeze you out wherever you go.

Like I said, never heard of it.

My personal suspicion--and it is only that!!!--is that somebody studied a certain church growth movement book a while back that basically taught that dissenters should leave or die BUT also seemed to imply that folks cannot leave a church and go to another one without permission of the first pastor.

I've almost always been in a position of leadership within the church and when we moved to NM from a young and growing IFB, I've had all sorts of calls from folks who were considering leaving because of the new pastor there. I could certainly identify with them, but most were young in the Lord. My advice was always to 1) Speak with the pastor and try to work it out. If that couldn't happen 2) leave, but leave quietly. Now those were questions never involved doctrine, rather the personality/bedside manners of the pastor. I didn't like them either, but I'm more mature, I hope .

UH, no, if your heart is right with God and not a major discipline thing, just walk away even if it means the whole denomination is off limits for a while. I've known of some that moved several hundred miles out of NM and this sort of thing followed them.

Actually, we'd move in a second if we could sell our property. There simply isn't but one or two churches in the area I would attend (I already stated my convictions. I left a church once where I loved the pastor and the people, but the pastor just wouldn't condemn false doctrine....and he was a Baptist, although a SBC Baptist ). He may like the area more than I do. It's ok, but a church is more important and my wife isn't exactly happy here in the middle of the desert).

But on the upside, while NM has some really bad actors around it also has some of the very best leaders in the world, in my not so humble opinion.

I know only one. No, not me. I was a conservative Baptist before there was any such thing as an IFB and it was years before I ever even heard of them. Wish it had been fifty years sooner . I believe my friend's background was pretty much the same, not sure about where. Being from Ky, and a long time ago, everyone was pretty conservative. For example the only difference in our belief system and the Methodist teaching was that they "sprinkled". As a matter of fact, John Wesley would turn over in his grave if he knew how far they had come!! I never want that to be said of any IFB church where I have any leadership position. The whole church world is sliding to the left, but soon, I hope, Jesus will return to claim His own.
Sorry, I don't know how to split up the quotes so I can reply to each point as I go, so I just did it in color. Hope it works.

 

[desertjim]

NEW INFO ABOUT OFFENSIVE PASTOR

To day my friend got a quick, polite, note from the pastor with his check back saying it could not be accepted at this time.

So, that means one of three things and possibly two of three things:

1) My friend is an absolute Godless man who had hurt the church before he left
(I'd stake my own reputation on that being false)
2) The pastor has absolutely no discernment when it comes to his members
3) The pastor is not qualified for the job (and he had never pastored before). He either saw an opportunity or the accolades of the people of the church were overwhelming, causing him to accept the job.

So, is he BEHOLDING to the members because they gave him the job? Is his lack of discernment about the intentions of the members causing him to do irrational things?

In either case, I feel that he is unqualified to stand behind God's pulpit. I've seen "opportunity" ruin many a good man. Can't say the cause.

In His Service,

Jim

 

[nodak]

I'm glad you haven't encountered the black list. Maybe it is dying out--good riddance to bad rubbish.

As to finding a non Baptist church if he can find a good one--when I lived in NM there were quite a few around labeled "Bible churches." Some were very charismatic but most were strong baptistic churches, just choosing not to wear the label.

Of course, NM prides itself on being the western edge of the Bible belt and most Baptist churches are going to be SBC. Some good, some not. Most are a lot more liberal than they were when I was a kid in NM.

We have neighbors from Tenn. where I live now that simply choose to home church since the Baptist churches here are quite different than where they came from.