Is Pelagius Teaching On The Rise?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pelagius argued for the existence of free will. He could not see how we can be responsible for something if we do not have free will in that matter. His premise was that the will, rather than being bound by sin, is actually neutral---so that at any moment or in any given situation, it is free to choose either good or evil.

From what Im reading & hearing this is the view of most people today....including Christians.

Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

 

[Winman]

Pelagius argued for the existence of free will. He could not see how we can be responsible for something if we do not have free will in that matter. His premise was that the will, rather than being bound by sin, is actually neutral---so that at any moment or in any given situation, it is free to choose either good or evil.

From what Im reading & hearing this is the view of most people today....including Christians.

Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

Free will was the view of the church until Augustine. All of the early church fathers believed in free will. Here is a page with numerous quotes from ECF on free will;

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/Predestination/EarlyChristiansNotCalvinists.htm

Most Baptists believe in free will and have from the beginning.

 

[Monster]

Free will was the view of the church until Augustine. All of the early church fathers believed in free will. Here is a page with numerous quotes from ECF on free will;

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/Predestination/EarlyChristiansNotCalvinists.htm

Most Baptists believe in free will and have from the beginning.

Great link, loads of information. Thanks!

 

[Winman]

Great link, loads of information. Thanks!

I am surprised that Calvinists did not know this.

Perhaps we can all agree on Calvinist Loraine Boettner’s words: "It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. ... They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. ... They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a cooperation between grace and free will." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination p.365.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Free will was the view of the church until Augustine. All of the early church fathers believed in free will. Here is a page with numerous quotes from ECF on free will;

http://www.biblequery.org/Doctrine/Predestination/EarlyChristiansNotCalvinists.htm

Most Baptists believe in free will and have from the beginning.

So what do you conclude....do most Baptists also embrace Pelagianism?

 

[preachinjesus]

The mischaracterization of Pelagianism in the OP taints the rest of the conversation. Pelagianism promoted more than just free will theology. The error of Pelagian was not in understanding free will, but that his view of original sin and Jesus' atonement are not biblical.

However, you simply cannot identify anything that isn't Reformed theology as Pelagianism. That only goes to reinforce the observation that you're attempting to show a partial argument.

 

[Winman]

So what do you conclude....do most Baptists also embrace Pelagianism?

Pelagianism is simply a word used to smear folks by association. Because the RCC labeled Pelagius a heretic, folks use that to smear anyone who believes in free will.

If you were to study Pelagius you would find that when he was present to defend himself he was not found to be a heretic. Only when he was not able to defend himself was he finally called a heretic.

All of the Early Church Fathers believed in free will. It was Augustine who introduced something new to the church.

Calvinistic teachings were a "new" doctrine, that nobody had taught in the church until Augustine around 400 A.D., and even Augustine was not a Calvinist. Newness does not automatically prove a doctrine false, but no New Testament Greek speaking Christians saw Calvinism in the Greek New Testament, Calvinists cannot lay claim to the argument that the Bible is full of Calvinism if the only people to see these in the New Testament Greek were people who did not speak New Testament Greek.

Some, but not all Calvinists maintain that one cannot have solid Christian doctrine without being a Calvinist. If this is true, then they must maintain that until Augustine we cannot find a single Christian for 300 years who had solid Christian doctrine. Even many Calvinists would not say that Augustine’s doctrine was solid, as he, among other things, promoted a "Roman Catholic" view of the church, torture of heretics, and all unbaptized babies suffering in hell.

None of the ECF who spoke Greek saw Calvinism in the scriptures. It was Augustine who relied on a flawed Latin text that introduced Original Sin and Calvinistic doctrines. This is historical fact whether you like it or not.

If anything, Baptist churches that hold to free will agree with the early church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then there are baptists that dont agree with free will.....how do you explain that?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Pelagius argued for the existence of free will. He could not see how we can be responsible for something if we do not have free will in that matter. His premise was that the will, rather than being bound by sin, is actually neutral---so that at any moment or in any given situation, it is free to choose either good or evil.

From what Im reading & hearing this is the view of most people today....including Christians.

Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

I do not follow Pelagius or Augustine. They are the opposite extremes.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Pelagianism is simply a word used to smear folks by association. Because the RCC labeled Pelagius a heretic, folks use that to smear anyone who believes in free will.

If you were to study Pelagius you would find that when he was present to defend himself he was not found to be a heretic. Only when he was not able to defend himself was he finally called a heretic.

All of the Early Church Fathers believed in free will. It was Augustine who introduced something new to the church.



None of the ECF who spoke Greek saw Calvinism in the scriptures. It was Augustine who relied on a flawed Latin text that introduced Original Sin and Calvinistic doctrines. This is historical fact whether you like it or not.

If anything, Baptist churches that hold to free will agree with the early church.

All of that is true.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Then there are baptists that dont agree with free will.....how do you explain that?

Simple. They are following Calvin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pelagianism is simply a word used to smear folks by association. Because the RCC labeled Pelagius a heretic, folks use that to smear anyone who believes in free will.


All of the Early Church Fathers believed in free will. It was Augustine who introduced something new to the church.



If anything, Baptist churches that hold to free will agree with the early church.

So you are saying Free Will Baptists are in effect Pelagians. There is no Original Sin belief system. Is that correct?

 

[Winman]

So you are saying Free Will Baptists are in effect Pelagians. There is no Original Sin belief system. Is that correct?

I don't know much about Free Will Baptists, so I cannot comment on them.

I also do not understand your question about Original Sin, but this doctrine is credited most to Augustine, although a few ECF expressed a type of OS in some statements. Most of the ECF were completely silent on Original Sin from what I have studied. It simply wasn't an issue with them, or they simply failed to address the matter.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The mischaracterization of Pelagianism in the OP taints the rest of the conversation. Pelagianism promoted more than just free will theology. The error of Pelagian was not in understanding free will, but that his view of original sin and Jesus' atonement are not biblical.

However, you simply cannot identify anything that isn't Reformed theology as Pelagianism. That only goes to reinforce the observation that you're attempting to show a partial argument.

No...I'm merely trying to understand it so here you are jumping to conclusions. Here is my original question.

Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Simple. They are following Calvin.

Only Presbyterians & Dutch Reformed follow Calvin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

if i am understanding you guys correctly, ---what ultimately determines whether a person will be saved is not the supernatural working of God thru the HS....but rather the persons will, which either receives or rejects the savior. This gives mere human beings glory that ought to go to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am surprised that Calvinists did not know this.

Calvinists know that anyone who believes we can lose salvation, does not understand salvation to begin with.:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

if i am understanding you guys correctly, ---what ultimately determines whether a person will be saved is not the supernatural working of God thru the HS....but rather the persons will, which either receives or rejects the savior. This gives mere human beings glory that ought to go to God.

That is nonsense. No man can regenerate himself, no man can give himself eternal life, only God can bestow this gift. And God only gives this gift to those who submit to and obey the gospel. If you get saved, you have to do it God's way, you must confess you are a sinner worthy of death, and you must believe that Jesus was the perfect Son of God who lived a sinless life and died for our sins. You must give up the idea that you can save yourself in any way and completely trust your soul to Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Folks who are trying to earn salvation are those who seek to glorify themselves. Those that trust Christ must confess they are lost sinners without any hope of saving themselves through their own merit and must completely depend on Jesus alone to save them. This is complete submission to God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Calvinists know that anyone who believes we can lose salvation, does not understand salvation to begin with.:thumbs:

Well.... I dont think any Reformed types truly conserns themselves with people who dont concede that salvation is entirely of God. If thats the case then Gods honor would be diminished & human beings would be able to boast in heaven.... I would imagine a Calvinist or any DoG believer would stand by:

Ephesians 2:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is nonsense. No man can regenerate himself, no man can give himself eternal life, only God can bestow this gift.

Are you thick.....I said that regeneration is determined by the supernational workings of God.