Is Pelagius Teaching On The Rise?

[MB]

here's all i really want to know, "is salvation entirely of God or is it not?" What is your answer?

If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

God saves a sinner on the basis of the death of Christ, that grace is applied towards us by/thru faith in Christ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

Because as grace is concerned it must be a matter of grace from beginning to end, not just prevenient or partial grace to which the sinner adds his or her efforts. Otherwise, salvation would not be entirely of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, and many Christians have denied this from the beginning of the church.

problem is that the Bible though teaches and affirms that God the father has imputed to all human being ever born after the fall the results of that event, namely born into sin, sin natured, estarnged from God! ONLY Jesus ever avoided that , for he was born in a sinless state!

Yep, because Ezekiel 18:20 says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. Many Christians have believed this from the beginning of the church.

Misunderstanding! Contex refers to the fact that God will judge the conduct of both on a seperate basis, if father was rotten, does not mean the son followed in those footsteps! NOTHING regarding if one is a sinner or not from birth!

When we are born we are not spiritually dead, Paul said he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

NO! paul was always dead in his sins before God, its just that when he tried to obey the requirements of the Law, God convinced him of that fact!

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Paul HAD to be speaking of spiritual death here, he could not possibly have written that he physically died. So Paul himself tells us he was originally spiritually alive. He told us in verse 7 that the law made him to know what sin is. So, when Paul learned the law and came to know what sin is, he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died. It is you that denies scripture, not me.

the law came to show us that we sinners, that we are unable to meet the requirements of the law, and to point us to Christ! Paul was saying here that from HIS point of view he was OK, but the law revealed to him that he was dead in his sins and tresgressions before God!

Jesus said "Come unto me". He did not attach any conditions to this, and he did not say a person had to be made spiritually alive to come to him. In fact, Jesus said a person must come to him to have life.

There IS a condition though! ONLY those whom the father has given unto Him shall be enabled to come unto him!

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

It is you that teaches the false doctrine that a person must have life to come to Jesus. Jesus taught the exact opposite, that a person must come to him to have life.

ONLY those who are predestined by the father to come unto him shall do such!

This is an outright falsehood and you know it. There is not one person here at BB that claims a person can come to Jesus without God's grace. I challenge you to show where ANYONE here has EVER said that.

You can't show that and you know it, you have told an intentional falsehood.

MANY here seem to believe that our free will response saves us though, as God waits to see if we will decide for jesus or not!

You say all sorts of silly things, I would completely ignore you except that others might believe your nonsense.

what you call "silly", I call the teaching of jesus and His Apostles!

 

[Yeshua1]

Because as grace is concerned it must be a matter of grace from beginning to end, not just prevenient or partial grace to which the sinner adds his or her efforts. Otherwise, salvation would not be entirely of God.

Would be vry strangethat a Sovereign God would grant to ALL the means to be savd, desired ALL to be saved, but that MANY will not be saved!

 

[Winman]

problem is that the Bible though teaches and affirms that God the father has imputed to all human being ever born after the fall the results of that event, namely born into sin, sin natured, estarnged from God! ONLY Jesus ever avoided that , for he was born in a sinless state!

Absolutely false and you cannot show a single verse of scripture to support this. I challenge you to show any verse that says God has imputed Adam's sin to any man. You cannot show it.

Misunderstanding! Contex refers to the fact that God will judge the conduct of both on a seperate basis, if father was rotten, does not mean the son followed in those footsteps! NOTHING regarding if one is a sinner or not from birth!

Baloney, Ezekiel 18:20 clearly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of his son. It is plain as day to the honest reader.

NO! paul was always dead in his sins before God, its just that when he tried to obey the requirements of the Law, God convinced him of that fact!

This is laughable, do you really think Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would make the mistake of saying he was once spiritually alive if all men are born dead in sins? You must think people are very stupid.

I will believe Paul and not your false teachers Augustine and Calvin.

the law came to show us that we sinners, that we are unable to meet the requirements of the law, and to point us to Christ! Paul was saying here that from HIS point of view he was OK, but the law revealed to him that he was dead in his sins and tresgressions before God!

Paul also said without law sin is not imputed. Paul said that he would have not known sin except by the law. When Paul learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and sin was imputed to him. At this time he spiritually died. Before he knew the law he was spiritually alive.

You can deny all you want, Paul said he was ALIVE without the law ONCE.

There IS a condition though! ONLY those whom the father has given unto Him shall be enabled to come unto him!

This is the first correct thing you have said. But scripture does not teach a man must be supernaturally regenerated to come, it teaches that a man must be taught of God and learn of him to come. And how does a man learn from God? Through the scriptures, the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, did Jesus say everyone who has been supernaturally regenerated comes to him as you falsely teach? NO, Jesus said EVERY man that has heard and learned of the Father comes to him. It is those men who listen to the Word of God and learn from it that come to Jesus.

ONLY those who are predestined by the father to come unto him shall do such!

Nonsense, there is no scripture that supports this whatsoever. Show it.

MANY here seem to believe that our free will response saves us though, as God waits to see if we will decide for jesus or not!

God never has to wait on any man, he knows in his foreknowledge who will believe and who will not.

what you call "silly", I call the teaching of jesus and His Apostles!

Total baloney. You never show scripture to support your views, because there is no scripture that supports your false teachings.

You simply repeat what you have been told.

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely false and you cannot show a single verse of scripture to support this. I challenge you to show any verse that says God has imputed Adam's sin to any man. You cannot show it.



Baloney, Ezekiel 18:20 clearly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of his son. It is plain as day to the honest reader.



This is laughable, do you really think Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would make the mistake of saying he was once spiritually alive if all men are born dead in sins? You must think people are very stupid.

I will believe Paul and not your false teachers Augustine and Calvin.



Paul also said without law sin is not imputed. Paul said that he would have not known sin except by the law. When Paul learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and sin was imputed to him. At this time he spiritually died. Before he knew the law he was spiritually alive.

You can deny all you want, Paul said he was ALIVE without the law ONCE.



This is the first correct thing you have said. But scripture does not teach a man must be supernaturally regenerated to come, it teaches that a man must be taught of God and learn of him to come. And how does a man learn from God? Through the scriptures, the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, did Jesus say everyone who has been supernaturally regenerated comes to him as you falsely teach? NO, Jesus said EVERY man that has heard and learned of the Father comes to him. It is those men who listen to the Word of God and learn from it that come to Jesus.



Nonsense, there is no scripture that supports this whatsoever. Show it.



God never has to wait on any man, he knows in his foreknowledge who will believe and who will not.



Total baloney. You never show scripture to support your views, because there is no scripture that supports your false teachings.

You simply repeat what you have been told.

Were you in a 'right relationship" with God before you knew that you were a sinner or not/ Were you born with God, than seperated once realised had sinned against him or what?

 

[Winman]

Were you in a 'right relationship" with God before you knew that you were a sinner or not/ Were you born with God, than seperated once realised had sinned against him or what?

I believe God has made all men upright (Ecc 7:29)

I do not believe God holds little children who do not understand right from wrong accountable until they mature and understand (Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Rom 7:9) I believe this would also apply to mentally challenged persons.

I believe at some point that only God knows, a person matures and understands right and wrong. At this point when they knowingly and willfully sin against God they are held accountable and spiritually die. I believe this is exactly what Paul is explaining in Romans 7:9.

I believe that ALL persons who mature and understand right from wrong will sin against God. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So back to my origional OP that appears to have gone offtrack

QUESTION: Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

ANSWER: ??????

 

[Benjamin]

So back to my origional OP that appears to have gone offtrack

QUESTION: Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

ANSWER: ??????

Someone needs a theological dictionary. Words don't mean what you want them to mean just because that is what you want them to mean. Free will is not the extent of the teachings of Pelagius. To represent them as the same thing is either intentionally dishonest or wholly uninformed.

Pretty much sums up your answer as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pretty much sums up your answer as far as I'm concerned.

Splendid dodge...what could one expect from the likes of you.:laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Here is an interesting quote I found on Augustine and Pelagians.

The great Doctor did not reproach the Pelagians with requiring a power to choose between good and evil; in fact he proclaims with them that without that power there is no responsibility, no merit, no demerit; but he reproaches them with exaggerating this power.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm

Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
here's all i really want to know, "is salvation entirely of God or is it not?" What is your answer?

Salvation is offered by God, but we must accept the offer.

It is like if you offer me a birthday present. I can accept it or reject it. The decision of accepting or rejecting is mine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is an interesting quote I found on Augustine and Pelagians.






Salvation is offered by God, but we must accept the offer.

It is like if you offer me a birthday present. I can accept it or reject it. The decision of accepting or rejecting is mine.

That was already done...long before

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Question:If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

Answer: No one, except those in whom the Holy Spirit has already performed the entirely irresistible work of the new birth, so that, as a result of this miracle, the spiritually blind eyes of the natural man are opened to see God's truth, and the depraved mind of the sinner, which in itself has no spiritual understanding, is renewed to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is when we understand that we are in the hands of a just and Holy God, and that we are without any hope of salvation apart from his utterly sovereign intervention, then we call for mercy, which is the only right response.

 

[Winman]

Question:If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

Answer: No one, except those in whom the Holy Spirit has already performed the entirely irresistible work of the new birth, so that, as a result of this miracle, the spiritually blind eyes of the natural man are opened to see God's truth, and the depraved mind of the sinner, which in itself has no spiritual understanding, is renewed to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is when we understand that we are in the hands of a just and Holy God, and that we are without any hope of salvation apart from his utterly sovereign intervention, then we call for mercy, which is the only right response.

No man can come to Jesus unless he has heard and learned from the Father.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

All men are dependent upon God's grace to be saved, a man must hear and learn from the Father to come to Jesus. How does a man do this? But hearing the word of God, faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the word of God. No supernatural regeneration is ever mentioned by Paul or anyone else in scripture to come to Christ, just that a man HEAR and LEARN of the Father.

This grace is not irresistible, the scriptures clearly show that men have the ability to resist the Spirit.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Stephen said the Jews did always resist the Holy Ghost as their fathers did. And Stephen shows how men resisted the Holy Ghost, by resisting those prophets and teachers God sent to preach to them. This is how God's grace is revealed to us, by those sent to preach the word of God.

You can parrot Reformed doctrine all day long, doesn't make it correct. The scriptures no where teach a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You cannot show it. The scriptures do not say God's grace is irresistible, no matter how many times you say it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You can parrot Reformed doctrine all day long, doesn't make it correct. The scriptures no where teach a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You cannot show it. The scriptures do not say God's grace is irresistible, no matter how many times you say it.

You know..... trying to educate you is similar to teaching a 3rd grader high school algebra. Unfortunately nothing sinks in & its an impossibility....I accept that.

I must thank you however, you have forced me to study my beliefs much more deeply with the end result that I am getting much more from these studies that I dreamed ever possible. Do me a tremendous favor & dont go anywhere because when I read your commentary, It makes me better. Thanks Man! :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

You know..... trying to educate you is similar to teaching a 3rd grader high school algebra. Unfortunately nothing sinks in & its an impossibility....I accept that.

I must thank you however, you have forced me to study my beliefs much more deeply with the end result that I am getting much more from these studies that I dreamed ever possible. Do me a tremendous favor & dont go anywhere because when I read your commentary, It makes me better. Thanks Man! :thumbs:

I am glad I could help you! :thumbs:

Now if you could only show scripture that supports your doctrine, that would be fantastic. See, guys like you and Yeshua1 constantly say things like "God's grace is irresistible" , but you NEVER (and I mean NEVER) show one word of scripture that supports this. It seems to me this would have been obvious even to you, but apparently not. You guys parrot all sorts of Reformed doctrine that does not have a word of support in scriptures.

I am glad you are going to study the scriptures, because when you are finished you will abandon this false doctrine you now mindlessly believe.

You can say whatever you want about me, you can call me a rebel or a heretic, but I ALWAYS show scripture that supports my view. You can open up your Bible and read it for yourself. I am not parroting some false teacher somewhere, and I am not making stuff up. You can see it with your own eyes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am glad I could help you! :thumbs:

Now if you could only show scripture that supports your doctrine, that would be fantastic. See, guys like you and Yeshua1 constantly say things like "God's grace is irresistible" , but you NEVER (and I mean NEVER) show one word of scripture that supports this. It seems to me this would have been obvious even to you, but apparently not. You guys parrot all sorts of Reformed doctrine that does not have a word of support in scriptures.

I am glad you are going to study the scriptures, because when you are finished you will abandon this false doctrine you now mindlessly believe.

You can say whatever you want about me, you can call me a rebel or a heretic, but I ALWAYS show scripture that supports my view. You can open up your Bible and read it for yourself. I am not parroting some false teacher somewhere, and I am not making stuff up. You can see it with your own eyes.

Keep playing chess....:smilewinkgrin: Think they call it Gamesmanship

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Question:If grace comes through faith why do you question it? Jesus saves because of the man's faith.
MB

Answer: No one, except those in whom the Holy Spirit has already performed the entirely irresistible work of the new birth, so that, as a result of this miracle, the spiritually blind eyes of the natural man are opened to see God's truth, and the depraved mind of the sinner, which in itself has no spiritual understanding, is renewed to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is when we understand that we are in the hands of a just and Holy God, and that we are without any hope of salvation apart from his utterly sovereign intervention, then we call for mercy, which is the only right response.

Do you think you would fit with the Primitive Baptists? Your views sound like maybe you would.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you think you would fit with the Primitive Baptists? Your views sound like maybe you would.

Im there now....but alas, there not here.