Is Pelagius Teaching On The Rise?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

]So men build a whole doctrine of inability on one verse. [/B]
MB

I didnt say that. Do you seriously believe that Edwards, Ferguson, Sproul, Boice, Ryken, Moeller, Kuyper, Spurgeon, Warfield etc would do that...LOL What do you think we are, Roman Catholics?

 

[MB]

I didnt say that. Do you seriously believe that Edwards, Ferguson, Sproul, Boice, Ryken, Moeller, Kuyper, Spurgeon, Warfield etc would do that...LOL What do you think we, are Roman Catholics?

I didn't say that, you did, but while we are at it. Calvinism was originally a Catholic doctrine. Being reformed also means Catholic. At any rate definitly not the doctrine of the early Church.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I didn't say that, you did, but while we are at it. Calvinism was originally a Catholic doctrine. Being reformed also means Catholic. At any rate definitly not the doctrine of the early Church.
MB

OK...since you made that claim.... Show me where the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace were Catholic Doctrine!

Be specific....particularly where Election, Reprobation & Atonement is concerned.

You can even have your little friends like Windman help you.

Take your time with it..... but prove your point.

 

[MB]

OK...since you made that claim.... Show me where the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace were Catholic Doctrine!

Augustine from wickapedia

In the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion, he is a saint, pre-eminent Doctor of the Church, and the patron of the Augustinians. His memorial is celebrated 28 August, the day of his death. He is the patron saint of brewers, printers, theologians, the alleviation of sore eyes, and a number of cities and dioceses.[10] Many Protestants, especially Calvinists, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, he is also considered a saint, his feast day being celebrated on 15 June.[11] He carries the additional title of Blessed. Among the Orthodox, he is called "Blessed Augustine" or "St. Augustine the Blessed."[12]

Read all of it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
MB

 

[MB]

What you call calvinism was actually writen by Augustine.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What you call calvinism was actually writen by Augustine.
MB

Yea. I said doctrines of grace. Did he write those? How bout Calvin...did he write those? I will give you an easy one....show me who's doctrine is closer to Roman Catholics, your consept of Atonement or the Calvinists?

 

[MB]

Yea. I said doctrines of grace. Did he write those? How bout Calvin...did he write those? I will give you an easy one....show me who's doctrine is closer to Roman Catholics, your consept of Atonement or the Calvinists?

Relax Catholics are no longer Augustinians they are universalist now. Which is why Luther and Calvin protested the RCC. The Atonement is limited to only those who believe and place their trust in Jesus Christ. That is not a particular few but the whosoever will believe.
MB

 

[webdog]

Yea. I said doctrines of grace. Did he write those? How bout Calvin...did he write those? I will give you an easy one....show me who's doctrine is closer to Roman Catholics, your consept of Atonement or the Calvinists?

I believe they borrow from both the C's and A's. They hold to a universal atonement to one degree, but believe it is only applied to catholics via the church. That's much more close to the Calvinist understanding.

The other petals...

Total Depravity: Very similar to Calvinists. See Augustinian original sin.

Unconditional Election: Pretty much in agreement, though catholics do not believe in double predestination while some Cal's do.

Irresistible Grace: Eerily similar to the RCC 'efficacious grace'

Perseverance of the Saints: The very phrase was taken from Augustine. Enough said.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe they borrow from both the C's and A's. They hold to a universal atonement to one degree, but believe it is only applied to catholics via the church. That's much more close to the Calvinist understanding.

The other petals...

Total Depravity: Very similar to Calvinists. See Augustinian original sin.

Unconditional Election: Pretty much in agreement, though catholics do not believe in double predestination while some Cal's do.

Irresistible Grace: Eerily similar to the RCC 'efficacious grace'

Perseverance of the Saints: The very phrase was taken from Augustine. Enough said.

I will tend to agree with you on Total Depravity (from original sin) & that is Augustinian

However I cannot see atonement which is pivotal.

Calvinists do not believe in Universal Atonement. We believe in Particular Redemption--2 different things. And that sets the stage for everything. Let me ask you....what did God the Father actually intend to do in sending his son to die for us?

Catholics will say that Christs death was not an actual atonement but only makes atonement possible. Then you have to walk thru the 7 sacraments.

Calvinists will say His death was an actual atonement for the sins of those elect persons whom the Father previously had determined to give to Jesus to save

And you will have to explain to me how some Catholics are chosen to election & others are not & thus they will be passed on as Reprobates. If they have doctrines like that then thats news to me since I was a Catholic for 32 years & never heard of it .

 

[webdog]

I will tend to agree with you on Total Depravity (from original sin) & that is Augustinian

However I cannot see atonement which is pivotal.

Calvinists do not believe in Universal Atonement. We believe in Particular Redemption--2 different things. And that sets the stage for everything. Let me ask you....what did God the Father actually intend to do in sending his son to die for us?

Christ died as the payment for offenses against God that were universal in scope (the curse).

And you will have to explain to me how some Catholics are chosen to election & others are not & thus they will be passed on as Reprobates. If they have doctrines like that then thats news to me since I was a Catholic for 32 years & never heard of it .

They believe all cstholics will be eventually saved and none reprobate unless they leave the chirch, and even then there is purgatory.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Christ died as the payment for offenses against God that were universal in scope (the curse).

They believe all cstholics will be eventually saved and none reprobate unless they leave the chirch, and even then there is purgatory.

I will ask our resident RC THINKING STUFF to clarify.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I believe they borrow from both the C's and A's. They hold to a universal atonement to one degree, but believe it is only applied to catholics via the church. That's much more close to the Calvinist understanding.

The other petals...

Total Depravity: Very similar to Calvinists. See Augustinian original sin.

Unconditional Election: Pretty much in agreement, though catholics do not believe in double predestination while some Cal's do.

Irresistible Grace: Eerily similar to the RCC 'efficacious grace'

Perseverance of the Saints: The very phrase was taken from Augustine. Enough said.

RC theology is very diverse. While Augustine was and is highly influential, Aquinas is just as much and maybe even more so.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

OK...since you made that claim.... Show me where the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace were Catholic Doctrine!

Be specific....particularly where Election, Reprobation & Atonement is concerned.

You can even have your little friends like Windman help you.

Take your time with it..... but prove your point.

Study the life and teachings of the Catholic monk Gottschalk. He antedates the "reformers" and he even taught Limited Atonement. Not that it really matters to me what they mean with it being a "Catholic" doctrine, so what? Invariably, no one teaches the doctrine of say, the Trinity better or more succinctly than does the RCC too.

There are some things that the RCC is correct about, so what does it matter if it is a "Catholic" doctrine anyway.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Study the life and teachings of the Catholic monk Gottschalk. He antedates the "reformers" and he even taught Limited Atonement. Not that it really matters to me what they mean with it being a "Catholic" doctrine, so what? Invariably, no one teaches the doctrine of say, the Trinity better or more succinctly than does the RCC too.

There are some things that the RCC is correct about, so what does it matter if it is a "Catholic" doctrine anyway.

Because I've seen to many 'cafeteria catholics' in my life proclaim that they are practitioners of Roman Catholicism but sin like pigs then go back to their church, get absolved & keep on sinning. That 'acting out'agenda kept me a sinner for 54 years. I believe the RCC is a primary enabler for carnality.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Because I've seen to many 'cafeteria catholics' in my life proclaim that they are practitioners of Roman Catholicism but sin like pigs then go back to their church, get absolved & keep on sinning. That 'acting out'agenda kept me a sinner for 54 years. I believe the RCC is a primary enabler for carnality.

I have heard back from Thinking Stuff who confirmed that Catholic Church considers Pelagius teaching heretical. Im sure thats not news to anyone. I am asking him to detail the catholic Doctrines of Election & atonement.

 

[kyredneck]

....They believe all cstholics will be eventually saved and none reprobate unless they leave the chirch, and even then there is purgatory.

I'm guessing an iPhone along with fat fingers....

 

[webdog]

I'm guessing an iPhone along with fat fingers....

Yep :thumbs:

 

[Van]

Name Calling and Deception

Pelagius argued for the existence of free will. He could not see how we can be responsible for something if we do not have free will in that matter. His premise was that the will, rather than being bound by sin, is actually neutral---so that at any moment or in any given situation, it is free to choose either good or evil.

From what Im reading & hearing this is the view of most people today....including Christians.

Is there in fact a broad spectrum of people embracing this as their operating doctrine today? Do you see it & who are they? Could you be one? Is this theology on the rise?

This is a typical Calvinist post. One, it brands, guilt by association, those who disagree with Calvinism as heretics. Two it misrepresents the issue. Is the will bound by sin? What verses support that fiction. Is the will neutral? What verses support that fiction.

On the other side we have scripture such as Matthew 23:13 which teaches unregenerate natural men of flesh can understand spiritual things, the milk of the gospel, well enough to be entering heaven. Thus they were seeking God. So even in a fallen, corrupted, disposed to sin, state, they could still seek God and understand some spiritual things.

So rather than discuss scripture, name calling deception is offered.

Calvinism is a mistaken doctrine, unbiblical and based on reading into the text the man-made inventions of the dark ages.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do want to examine the claims about RC's & DoG believers being similar.

Well, not as far as the doctrine of justification is concerned.

For RC's, justification supports a subjective process begun by faith completed by works.

For DoG Believers ... our justification is a subjective declaration that the believer is righteous through faith in Christ alone, apart from works.

And as for atonement...I stand on my earlier commentary. They prefer to view the crucifixion as a demonstration of love rather than as the satisfaction of a debt. This is part of the overall aversion to understanding salvation in legal categories, with a general preference for relational categories instead. But of course scripture teaches both. the atonement accomplishes both redemption and reconciliation.

 

[Yeshua1]

I will ask our resident RC THINKING STUFF to clarify.

jesus died for the sin debt of sinners , as a penal substition before God the father, as ths sin debt of all those who were to benefit from His death were paid for by His death!

RCC denies that aspect, for they hold that real grace is merited out from god to us thru theSacraments, so its your good works efforts and the grace from the Sacraments that combine to make you a bteer person, and eventually either in this life, or at death, or after purgatory , the sinner will ahve cooperative well enough for God to be right to see them "right enough" to merit getting saved!
Rome reverses the process, having sinners become sauntified enough to inder to have God justify them!