Is Physical Death A Form Of God's Chastisement?

[Brother Bob]

I think the context demands that the Corinthians who were sick and falling asleep were Christians. Even without the context, I'm not aware of any scripture where the expression "fall asleep" is used for anyone but Christians.

He took Ananias and Sappira life.
I can't think right now, but there probably is others.

 

[TCGreek]

I think the context demands that the Corinthians who were sick and falling asleep were Christians. Even without the context, I'm not aware of any scripture where the expression "fall asleep" is used for anyone but Christians.

Good observation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Still, you have not given any reason why these were non-Christians.

Because in those days, many followed for the food, they may have been Christian, then again, they may not have been.

 

[TCGreek]

Because in those days, many followed for the food, they may have been Christian, then again, they may not have been.

1. But you must prove from the context of 1Corinthians that that was the case.

2. Such a blanketed statement would not work.

 

[TCGreek]

They deliberately misrepresented how much money they got for selling their land. It wasn't a mistake but a calculated lie so they could look good while pocketing the difference. The fact that it was a lie to the Holy Spirit implies they had the Holy Spirit within them, but that's not necessarily true.

1. I'm hard-pressed to think that Ananias and his wife were not Christians.

2. I know John MacArthur thinks that they were false believers.

3. Until I'm convinced otherwise, I suspend my judgment. You know, the same God who took the lives of those in 1Corinthians 11, is the same God here in Acts 5.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. I'm hard-pressed to think that Ananias and his wife were not Christians.

2. I know John MacArthur thinks that they were false believers.

3. Until I'm convinced otherwise, I suspend my judgment. You know, the same God who took the lives of those in 1Corinthians 11, is the same God here in Acts 5.

You got a point, except there will be no liars in Heaven.

 

[TCGreek]

You got a point, except there will be no liars in Heaven.

1. The only how that I'm going to make it to heaven is because of the never ending fountain of grace that continues to flow and from which I continue to partake.

2. According to Eph.5, Jesus is the one who is going to present the church spotless and blameless to himself, not man.

3. When the Lord returns, How many of us would be sin-free? How many of us would be walking around with an unconfessed sin?

4. It's all of grace! If it weren't for the amazing grace of God, I would have no hope of heaven. Nothing I do, can secure a place for me in heaven.

5. I'm wholly dependent on the grace and mercy of Almighty God.

 

[TCGreek]

You got a point, except there will be no liars in Heaven.

No liars would be in heaven. You're right. The blood of Christ would have already cleansed that.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. The only how that I'm going to make it to heaven is because of the never ending fountain of grace that continues to flow and from which I continue to partake.

2. According to Eph.5, Jesus is the one who is going to present the church spotless and blameless to himself, not man.

3. When the Lord returns, How many of us would be sin-free? How many of us would be walking around with an unconfessed sin?

4. It's all of grace! If it weren't for the amazing grace of God, I would have no hope of heaven. Nothing I do, can secure a place for me in heaven.

5. I'm wholly dependent on the grace and mercy of Almighty God.

Amen and His Grace is sufficient.

That is why the chastisement the name of this thread and the Advocate. If it were as some say, then there would be no need for this "early" death, would there?

No liars would be in heaven. You're right. The blood of Christ would have already cleansed that

Then why Ananias and Sappira, please tell me why?

 

[npetreley]

1. The only how that I'm going to make it to heaven is because of the never ending fountain of grace that continues to flow and from which I continue to partake.

2. According to Eph.5, Jesus is the one who is going to present the church spotless and blameless to himself, not man.

3. When the Lord returns, How many of us would be sin-free? How many of us would be walking around with an unconfessed sin?

4. It's all of grace! If it weren't for the amazing grace of God, I would have no hope of heaven. Nothing I do, can secure a place for me in heaven.

5. I'm wholly dependent on the grace and mercy of Almighty God.

Wow, I have to say I'm split on this one. For the first year or so after I was saved, I lied. Not a LOT but enough. It was habit. God embarrassed me in my lies every time, and I learned my lesson (there's a real-life case of chastising for you, and it didn't take 1,000 years in hell, either). By the time I had kids, I couldn't even tell them there was a Santa Claus (not that I would have anyway). There was no such thing as an innocent lie to me anymore.

Now -- if God had struck me dead in the first year, someone might have called me a liar, and claimed I must have been a false believer. On the other hand, I couldn't STAY a liar because God corrected me. Where does that put Ananias and Sapphira? Were they liars, or were they simply immature Christians? I have no clue, and I won't pass judgement either way.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wow, I have to say I'm split on this one. For the first year or so after I was saved, I lied. Not a LOT but enough. It was habit. God embarrassed me in my lies every time, and I learned my lesson (there's a real-life case of chastising for you, and it didn't take 1,000 years in hell, either). By the time I had kids, I couldn't even tell them there was a Santa Claus (not that I would have anyway). There was no such thing as an innocent lie to me anymore.

Now -- if God had struck me dead in the first year, someone might have called me a liar, and claimed I must have been a false believer. On the other hand, I couldn't STAY a liar because God corrected me. Where does that put Ananias and Sapphira? Were they liars, or were they simply immature Christians? I have no clue, and I won't pass judgement either way.

May God continue to Bless you, I love that testimony and its to the Glory of God's Grace and that His Grace really works.

BBob

 

[Amy.G]

Wow, I have to say I'm split on this one. For the first year or so after I was saved, I lied. Not a LOT but enough. It was habit. God embarrassed me in my lies every time, and I learned my lesson (there's a real-life case of chastising for you, and it didn't take 1,000 years in hell, either). By the time I had kids, I couldn't even tell them there was a Santa Claus (not that I would have anyway). There was no such thing as an innocent lie to me anymore.

Now -- if God had struck me dead in the first year, someone might have called me a liar, and claimed I must have been a false believer. On the other hand, I couldn't STAY a liar because God corrected me. Where does that put Ananias and Sapphira? Were they liars, or were they simply immature Christians? I have no clue, and I won't pass judgement either way.

I'm glad I'm not alone in my ignorance. :laugh:

TC, is this one of those tensions in scripture?

 

[Brother Bob]

Ananias and Sapphira

Died while lying to the Holy Ghost. I don't think they were saved, but thats just me.

 

[TCGreek]

Now -- if God had struck me dead in the first year, someone might have called me a liar, and claimed I must have been a false believer. On the other hand, I couldn't STAY a liar because God corrected me. Where does that put Ananias and Sapphira? Were they liars, or were they simply immature Christians? I have no clue, and I won't pass judgement either way.

1. Npetreley, there was a time that I thought that if I could get my reasoning skills just right. Maybe do a law degree the hone the reasoning skills, so I could understand the Bible better.

2. I thought I could approach the Bible as a logic-machine. You know, just put the facts into an airtight logic-machine and everything would be right.

3. Then I started to understanding the sovereign grace of God, the seminal aspect of Calvinism that would engulg me, and I had no choice but to give up my logic-machine approach to Scripture.

4. The grace of God and how it works defies logic.

5. No sin is going to be in heaven because Christ atoned for them. If God wanted to save Ananias and his wife even though He used them to teach a grave lesson to the church, who am I to challenge God and say that doesn't fit my logic-machine?

6. I love reading John MacArthur, but I think he took the seat of God on that one.

 

[npetreley]

4. The grace of God and how it works defies logic.

It sure does! And praise God for that.

 

[Brother Bob]

Nite...............:sleeping_2:

 

[TCGreek]

I'm glad I'm not alone in my ignorance. :laugh:

TC, is this one of those tensions in scripture?

Amy, until I know more, I cannot say that Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians even in death.

How many Christians would have just committed a sin when Christ would have bursted the clouds with His holy angels at his second coming?

 

[jne1611]

You still did not answer my question.
1. How come the world can't sin, but Christians can. I find no where in scripture that the word teaches to become a Christian so you can sin.

2. Does this early death of chastisement pay for the sin that brought on the early death?

3. You and others keep saying over and over that Christians sin, and everyone of you use 1John 2:4

Don't you think if you are going to use the scripture of "hath no sin" for the Christian is a liar,

1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

don't you think you should have to give an answer for, 1John 3:9?

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Being both scriptures were given by John and very close together in scripture?

Hello Bro. Bob.
1.Let me say again. There is to big a difference between being saved & being lost for me to make comparisons between what they do and what we do. And I have never said, become a christian so you can sin. That is a misinterpretation of what I have said.

2. When you say "pay for the sin", if you mean redemption, I say no. I do not believe that we are constantly having our sins payed for in this life as far as our standing with God is concerned. That payment was made by Christ, not us. We are being dealt with as the sons of God when we are chastised, for God's own reasons.

3. I use 1John. 2:8 because it is there to use.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

4. 1 John 2:4 is a good point. It proves that God's people are characterised by obedience. But, you would not try to use this Scripture to say that a Christian can not break one of Christ's commandments would you? Have you ever went over all of Christ's commandments Bro. Bob? You can never keep them all to perfection. The rebuke is going to those who indulge in sin with no problem identifying with Christ. Those who are proud of their sin & love the world & yet claim Christ and to love him as well are liars. But, I do not think you can use this to prove that Christians cannot be disobedient, but that may not be your point. Keep the Scriptures coming. I need to be clearer as to your thinking on this matter.


5. 1John 3:9 I agree with as well. Yet this is not talking about flesh and blood. This is the inward man. "born of God". John is not going to set a standard that will contradict his own statements and the multitudes of other Scriptures that talk of the sins of the Church. That man "inward" that is born of God cannot sin. Yet we are still limited by these fleshly bodies.

 

[jne1611]

I personally think Anaias and his wife were lost.

1 Cor. 11:29 you have a good question. Did it pay for the sin, what ever it was. If it were unchristians following them for food, then that would be a different thing.

Going by context, there is no doubt about the Corinthians being the children of God.

 

[jne1611]

Wow, I have to say I'm split on this one. For the first year or so after I was saved, I lied. Not a LOT but enough. It was habit. God embarrassed me in my lies every time, and I learned my lesson (there's a real-life case of chastising for you, and it didn't take 1,000 years in hell, either). By the time I had kids, I couldn't even tell them there was a Santa Claus (not that I would have anyway). There was no such thing as an innocent lie to me anymore.

Now -- if God had struck me dead in the first year, someone might have called me a liar, and claimed I must have been a false believer. On the other hand, I couldn't STAY a liar because God corrected me. Where does that put Ananias and Sapphira? Were they liars, or were they simply immature Christians? I have no clue, and I won't pass judgement either way.

I am VERY humbled in the honesty of this. This is the point I was making in the post above. Christians have problems, and sins that need work on. None of us in the flesh are perfect. God is continually working out in us what He has already worked in us. That sanctification is progressive & will never be complete till we put on in-corruption. We will die with a sin tainted body if we die before the resurrection. Some Christians are overtaken by sin at times, and if they do not as Paul said "judge themselves" the run the risk of death. It is not a payment for their sin in a saving sense. It just sets them apart form the wicked who can do as they wish with no reproof or correction in their life. Their day is coming in flaming fire.