Is Physical Death the Penalty for Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Scripture also tells us our bodies are not fit for Heaven. Regardless if someone "dies"...these corruptible bodies do not enter Heaven, so they still "die" so to speak, even those raptured. One may not lose consciousness, but the current flesh is not fit for Heaven.

HP: OK, so define death for the list, the death you believe is the penalty for sin.

 

[webdog]

The wages of sin is death (spiritual death).

I do believe mankind has been cursed with physical death, too. Not having access to the Tree of Life being the reason.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD, I do not see your last post as a definition. A definition might start with the words, Death, that is the penalty for sin, is described as_________________. Try filling in the blanks.

Are you just going to avoid the other questions I asked, or are you still thinking?

 

[webdog]

HP, death is separation. When we die physically, our souls are separated from our bodies. When we die spiritually, our souls are separated from God. I don't know what else you are after.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: HP, death is separation. When we die physically, our souls are separated from our bodies. When we die spiritually, our souls are separated from God. I don't know what else you are after.

HP: OK. You say that death is separation. Separation from what? Enoch had to have been separated from his corruptable flesh, but did Enoch die?

 

[webdog]

HP: OK. You say that death is separation. Separation from what? Enoch had to have been separated from his corruptable flesh, but did Enoch die?

I told you from what.

Do you believe Enoch's corruptible body was fit for Heaven?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: Do you believe Enoch's corruptible body was fit for Heaven?

HP: Enoch was obviously ready, but Scripture is still clear. Nothing physical will inherit eternity without being changed. Being changed in itself is not death, for Enoch had to be changed. Scripture flatly states that he DID NOT see death. Scripture refutes the notion that death is simply changing from the physical to the eternal. Again, Enoch had to be changed but that was not death according to Scripture.

I believe we must conclude that the penalty for sin cannot be simply a change from the physical to the eternal.

 

[webdog]

HP: Enoch was obviously ready, but Scripture is still clear. Nothing physical will inherit eternity without being changed. Being changed in itself is not death, for Enoch had to be changed. Scripture flatly states that he DID NOT see death. Scripture refutes the notion that death is simply changing from the physical to the eternal. Again, Enoch had to be changed but that was not death according to Scripture.

I believe we must conclude that the penalty for sin cannot be simply a change from the physical to the eternal.

...so when Scripture also tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die, we have to run that verse through the Enoch filter? Scripture never contradicts, so one has to give.

 

[trustitl]

The only proof for death not being death as normally understood is that 2-3 people have not died and that the sentence has not been served instantly. The burden lies on those trying to convince us that death is not physical death.

HP: "To state ones belief may be honorable but lacks muster to convince."

Convincing someone with a preconceived notion based on a theological position is difficult indeed.

What scriptural support is their for this thing called spiritual death? Can a spirit really die? (Please resist jumping in Bob :smilewinkgrin: )

If the penalty for sin was dying spiritually, did Jesus die spiritually for us?

Adam's separation from God was to keep him from the tree of life "lest he eat of it and live forever". He died because of that separation. In that sense his physical death was a consequence.

CONSEQUENCE, n. [L., to follow.]

1. That which follows from any act, cause, principle, or series of actions. Hence, an event or effect produced by some preceding act or cause.


God told Adam to not eat of the tree. It was the first "law" in the Bible. Adam suffered because of his trespass. In that sense it was a penalty.

PEN'ALTY, n.

1. The suffering in person or property which is annexed by law or judicial decision to the commission of a crime, offense or trespass, as a punishment.

Jesus paid the penalty for my sin (and of the whole worlds) but I am still subject to the consequences of Adam's sin.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: ...so when Scripture also tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die, we have to run that verse through the Enoch filter? Scripture never contradicts, so one has to give.

HP: I would call it a truth filter. :thumbs:

I also believe we must examine our beliefs in light of every Scripture, and there is some give and take. That is why, when it comes to the penalty for sin, I cannot accept the notion that physical death is the penalty for sin. Certainly, being created as the finite offspring of Adam, it is appointed for us once to die, but it is clear that that appointment has not been the universal case, and from all apparent notions concerning the rapture, it will not be the case in dispensation that sees the Lord’s return, which well may be the one we are living in. It is also appointed that those who are alive in Christ and remain will be caught up together with the Lord. I don’t believe for a minute that there will be a bunch of dead bodies lying around from the raptured believers, do you? What is your hope?

 

[webdog]

HP: I would call it a truth filter. :thumbs:

I also believe we must examine our beliefs in light of every Scripture, and there is some give and take. That is why, when it comes to the penalty for sin, I cannot accept the notion that physical death is the penalty for sin. Certainly, being created as the finite offspring of Adam, it is appointed for us once to die, but it is clear that that appointment has not been the universal case, and from all apparent notions concerning the rapture, it will not be the case in dispensation that sees the Lord’s return, which well may be the one we are living in. It is also appointed that those who are alive in Christ and remain will be caught up together with the Lord. I don’t believe for a minute that there will be a bunch of dead bodies lying around from the raptured believers, do you? What is your hope?

So you filter all of mankind through an isolated incident? That's like filtering "For God so loved through the world" through "...Esau I hated".

The hope I have is that the Lord comes soon :thumbs:
I think Pastor Bob did a good job of explaining death already, and I cannot add much more to that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: Jesus paid the penalty for my sin (and of the whole worlds) but I am still subject to the consequences of Adam's sin.

HP: I notice you placed this in bold for us. If Jesus literally paid the penalty for our sins, and the penalty for our sins is physical death, then why do believers that have had their sins paid for by Christ still have to suffer physical death? Was the death of Christ unable to succor that for which it was intended, or is double jeopardy in play?

 

[webdog]

I notice you placed this in bold for us. If Jesus literally paid the penalty for our sins, and the penalty for our sins is physical death, then why do believers that have had their sins paid for by Christ still have to suffer physical death?

No access to the Tree of Life. That privilege was removed upon A&E eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: The hope I have is that the Lord comes soon
I think Pastor Bob did a good job of explaining death already, and I cannot add much more to that.

HP: That is a indeed a good hope to entertain. :thumbs:

Pastor Bob has several pertinent questions to clear up just as you still have.

What about the comment you made about death as it relates to abortion? Would it have been impossible, prior to the recorded fall, for murder to have taken place?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

WD: No access to the Tree of Life.

HP: What are you speaking of? Is not Christ our Tree of Life? "He that hath the Son, hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life."

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Pastor Bob has several pertinent questions to clear up just as you still have.

Your questions have been repeatedly answered in spite of the fact that you have chosen to disregard the answers. You engage in what is referred to as "subjective validation." You have a habit of ignoring or down-playing the counter evidence thus making it tiresome to continue the discussion with you.

He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion. John Stewart Mill​

Physical death is the separation of the soul and the body. All men experience this death, even Elijah and Enoch and those to be taken in the rapture. Had Adam not sinned, this death would not have been passed to all men.
​

 

[trustitl]

Physical death

HP: I notice you placed this in bold for us. If Jesus literally paid the penalty for our sins, and the penalty for our sins is physical death, then why do believers that have had their sins paid for by Christ still have to suffer physical death? Was the death of Christ unable to succor that for which it was intended, or is double jeopardy in play

Are you willing to wait for the inheritance to be delivered?

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time

I COr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: Your questions have been repeatedly answered in spite of the fact that you have chosen to disregard the answers.

HP: Pardon me Pastor? Where have you engaged the Scripture set forth that clearly states that Enoch did NOT see death? If I missed a post or your handling of this text, would you be so kind as to point me to it? Thanks.

Oh I remember. You posted something to the effect that Enoch and Elijah would have to return to die didn't you? Where does Scripture state that Enoch or Elijah will be the two dead witnesses? Is that not simply conjecture?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: Are you willing to wait for the inheritance to be delivered?

HP: Wait for what? I cannot tell you all the times I have heard that all is finished on the cross, and that we are now in absolute possession of our inheritance. Could you be specific in just what it is that you believe we are waiting for? Just what is this ‘trial’ of faith all about to you? It would seem to me that if we cannot loose that which we have, the trial is over, as far as our faith is concerned, would you not agree?

If we are in possession of absolute knowledge of our salvation as so many on this list have claimed, what does this ‘faith’ and ‘waiting’ business have to do with salvation? Are you not confusing rewards with salvation? Is our inheritance ‘rewards’ or being made joint heirs with Christ? If we have already been made joint heirs of Christ and that without possibility of change, what part of our inheritance in Christ are we as believers not in full possession of now?

Now if you believe we indeed may be deceived as to our standing before God, and may in fact turn from our present standing with Christ as some believe one can and I also believe is a possibility, I can possibly then understand what we are waiting for and what it is that our trail of our faith consists of. Otherwise, you will have to explain to me your views.

The point I was making with you was due to your comment as follows:

TrustitL: “Jesus paid the penalty for my sin (and of the whole worlds) but I am still subject to the consequences of Adam's sin.”

I asked you the following:If Jesus literally paid the penalty for our sins, and the penalty for our sins is physical death, then why do believers that have had their sins paid for by Christ still have to suffer physical death? Was the death of Christ unable to succor that for which it was intended, or is double jeopardy in play? Possibly I missed something, but I cannot see how you have answered these questions at all with your present remarks.

 

[trustitl]

I believe we are "saved by grace through faith"

and we are

"kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." I Peter1:5

I say I believe in ONEconditional eternal security: that is, faith. We need to stop asking "Can we lose our salvation?". I think it is simply "can we stop believing?" The following verse tells me keep believing and encourage my brothers to as well.

Heb.3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Note: it is not sin that makes us "lose" our salvation. It is unbelief. There is something about sin that can harden our hearts.

Our father Abraham was tested, we ought to expect the same:

Heb. 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Heb. 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The willful sin, I believe, is not doing a sin that you know is a sin (that is really the only kind of sin there is), it is turning from the faith. Where that line is, God only knows. We also have God giving amazing promises about keeping us from that point, so I think it is a rare occurance.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.

Heb. 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

These are not verses dealing with rewards. One of the greatest tests, if not the greatest test, is death.