I'm going to answer these questions - as many as I have time for tonight, at least - in a new thread, "Christ in Daniel 9". This thread has drifted away from the original post.
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Is Rapture the correct term?
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
I'm going to answer these questions - as many as I have time for tonight, at least - in a new thread, "Christ in Daniel 9". This thread has drifted away from the original post.
I view both houses (though they were separated) as referring to Israel in general.
Again, Paul was an able minister of the New Covenant (Testament). I do not believe the reference is to the collective books. Paul also preached from the Old Testament.
God bless.
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good morning Darrell C.,
First let me say how much I am enjoying our discussion. It brings back memories of some of the discussions I was involved in years ago on the web.
Very pleasant and fruitful.
Some might feel a discussion of this topic does not belong in a thread dealing with the rapture; however in my opinion since the rapture is only for the Body of Christ, any discussion which shows the Biblical separation between the Body and Israel is certainly on topic.
Here, I must be clear, I have no doubt that today any member of the children of Israel who believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ will be placed in the Body just as was Paul who said he was the first.
Again, look at Hebrews 9:15-20.
I did a search at BibleGateway on the word "covenant" in the book of Hebrews. Below are the ones I found from ch9.
Hebrews 9:1 (King James Version)
1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
I see neither referring to either the New Covenant, nor the New Testament.
Sorry about that, I was being lazy. In Ezekial 36:24-28 is the descriptive promise of the New Covenant. It is certainly for Israel, when they are restored at the time of the tribulation, in which God will lift the veil from their eyes, and save them. "All Israel will be saved" at this time, because those who say they are Jews (but are of the synagogue of Satan) will be destroyed in the judgement of the Day of the Lord (one will be taken, and one left).
I will let you read these and then if you will, you can let me know if you think I'm off base. I will say this, though. In John chapter 3, Jesus implied Nicodemus should have understood what He meant when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (c.f.3:10)
Where would Nicodemus have known this from?
Very interesting, I have never viewed Jesus' interaction with Nicodemus in quiet this light.
Now, I do see that John 3:10 is very telling when Jesus calls Nicodemus a "master of Israel" and implies they should have known these things.
But what things?????
Perhaps your reference in Eze 36 is but one mention of the things Jesus referred. Certainly all through the prophectic books of the OT is wrath and destruction; but also there is love, mercy, and grace.
The Jews wanted the wrath of God to reign down on their foes; but it seems they had overlooked the parts about a loving, spiritual relationship.
I would call attention to the following:
Isaiah 1:13 (King James Version)
13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Micah 6:8 (King James Version)
8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
It seems much like the trials of Job. He had to endure much before he realized exactly what a relationship with God truly is.
I view Job as a type of Israel during the second half of the Trib. I find it interesting that the book of Job has 42 chapters.
Perhaps the lesson for us today is that before we witness the power of God unto salvation, we must humble ourselves to the love and grace.
But tell me, where are you going with the passage from John concerning Nicodemus?
Do you feel the concept of being "born again" is somehow only associated with the Jews?
I do realize Paul never used the statement; but have never studied it out completely.
Any light you have would be of interest.
First let me say how much I am enjoying our discussion. It brings back memories of some of the discussions I was involved in years ago on the web.
Very pleasant and fruitful.
Some might feel a discussion of this topic does not belong in a thread dealing with the rapture; however in my opinion since the rapture is only for the Body of Christ, any discussion which shows the Biblical separation between the Body and Israel is certainly on topic.
Here, I must be clear, I have no doubt that today any member of the children of Israel who believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ will be placed in the Body just as was Paul who said he was the first.
Again, look at Hebrews 9:15-20.
I did a search at BibleGateway on the word "covenant" in the book of Hebrews. Below are the ones I found from ch9.
Hebrews 9:1 (King James Version)
1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
I see neither referring to either the New Covenant, nor the New Testament.
Sorry about that, I was being lazy. In Ezekial 36:24-28 is the descriptive promise of the New Covenant. It is certainly for Israel, when they are restored at the time of the tribulation, in which God will lift the veil from their eyes, and save them. "All Israel will be saved" at this time, because those who say they are Jews (but are of the synagogue of Satan) will be destroyed in the judgement of the Day of the Lord (one will be taken, and one left).
I will let you read these and then if you will, you can let me know if you think I'm off base. I will say this, though. In John chapter 3, Jesus implied Nicodemus should have understood what He meant when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (c.f.3:10)
Where would Nicodemus have known this from?
Very interesting, I have never viewed Jesus' interaction with Nicodemus in quiet this light.
Now, I do see that John 3:10 is very telling when Jesus calls Nicodemus a "master of Israel" and implies they should have known these things.
But what things?????
Perhaps your reference in Eze 36 is but one mention of the things Jesus referred. Certainly all through the prophectic books of the OT is wrath and destruction; but also there is love, mercy, and grace.
The Jews wanted the wrath of God to reign down on their foes; but it seems they had overlooked the parts about a loving, spiritual relationship.
I would call attention to the following:
Isaiah 1:13 (King James Version)
13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Micah 6:8 (King James Version)
8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
It seems much like the trials of Job. He had to endure much before he realized exactly what a relationship with God truly is.
I view Job as a type of Israel during the second half of the Trib. I find it interesting that the book of Job has 42 chapters.
Perhaps the lesson for us today is that before we witness the power of God unto salvation, we must humble ourselves to the love and grace.
But tell me, where are you going with the passage from John concerning Nicodemus?
Do you feel the concept of being "born again" is somehow only associated with the Jews?
I do realize Paul never used the statement; but have never studied it out completely.
Any light you have would be of interest.
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Well, sort of (kind of) ...
Galatians 4
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
HankD
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
HankD
Hi olegig,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the question.
But generally to me it says that Isaac was born again of the Spirit, Esau was not and persecuted Isaac.
HankD
Will there be any kind of Rapture (or being caught up) ?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
In my part of the world some people that use the word rapture believe if they are alive at the rapture they will cheet death and the grave. Others believe there is a death even to the raptured ones because the scripture say's, It's appointed unto man once to die, and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so even though we are changed in a moment and a twinkling of an eye, the natural corrupt body would die. So which is right ? Another question, and this concern's death's sting. If the first part of my statement is correct and we cheet death by the rapture, and we would also cheet the grave, O grave where is thy victory, then we would also cheet the sting of death too, O death where is thy sting. My question: I have heard all of my life that for the christian there is no sting at the time of his death but wouldn't verse in 1 Cor 15:55 O death where is thy sting just be referring to the rapture ?
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Those questions have followed me for years, but, if it's of any help I would say these things:
1.) I think we sometimes make too much of the verse which says "It is appointed unto man once to die...
The point of the passage (Hebrews 9:25-28) is to explain why Christ's sacrifice was "once and for all" sufficient. It wasn't the "POINT" to prove how many times every human must in fact "die". The surrounding verses demonstrate the point that Christ's one-time death was sufficient.
If it were: than the statement is provably false, because physically not all people do die once. Anyone ever raised from the dead, has, in fact, died TWICE!! Lazarus didn't die once, but twice.etc...
However, a "rapture" scenario (depending on how one defines 'DEATH') may satisfy the conditions anyway. For instance, one common definition of physical death is simply "the separation of the soul/spirit from the body"....Technically, a rapture scenario would satisfy these conditions.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I don't think it JUST refers to the rapture.
The immediate context is indeed the "rapture" as verses 51-53 would indicate. Thus, the rapture serves as the exemplar for the statement that death has no sting. However, I don't think that this rules-out the relevance to those who have already died see vs.
1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Verse 55 sums up the total argument Paul makes which begins in VERSE 1!
So, if you read the entire chapter, I think that the statement that death has no sting is relevant to those who have ALREADY died and those who WILL die, and those who are "caught-up" in a Rapture scenario.
Nice questions Salzer! Hope this helps a little :wavey:
saturneptune
New Member
Most of us will die at the appointed time of our death apart from the return of the Lord. (whether that be pre, post, or whatever, He will return) I have always wondered if the experience of dying feels exactly like what one would feel if they were alive when the Lord returns and we as Christians are translated?
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Greek - harpazo - To snatch away, carry off, to steal (Liddell-Scott)1 Thessalonians 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus
Latin root- rapio : to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away.
Other interesting uses:
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ; such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Greek - harpazo - To snatch away, carry off, to steal (Liddell-Scott)
2 Corinthians 12:2 scio hominem in Christo ante annos quattuordecim sive in corpore nescio sive extra corpus nescio Deus scit raptum eiusmodi usque ad tertium caelum
Latin root- rapio : to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away.
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Greek - harpazo - To snatch away, carry off, to steal (Liddell-Scott)
2 Corinthians 12:4 quoniam raptus est in paradisum et audivit arcana verba quae non licet homini loqui
Latin root- rapio : to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Greek - harpazo - To snatch away, carry off, to steal (Liddell-Scott)Revelation 12:5 et peperit filium masculum qui recturus erit omnes gentes in virga ferrea et raptus est filius eius ad Deum et ad thronum eius
Latin root- rapio : to seize and carry off, snatch, tear, pluck, drag, hurry away
Personally....
....rather than Rapture or translation, I prefer "Airlift!" We will all be taken in one massive airlift! :smilewinkgrin:
....rather than Rapture or translation, I prefer "Airlift!" We will all be taken in one massive airlift! :smilewinkgrin:
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Thanks HoS.