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Is Righteousness Imputed Apart From Works?

H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Amy, here is just a sampling of a few verses for you to consider.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Amy, did it ever occur to you to read why the Apostles said he wrote the books of John? It certainly was not to make us all sinners, now was it? 1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Matt Black said:
And where does it use the word 'alone'?
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When I tell my wife "I am going to the store." She assumes it is alone.
"Alone" is implicit in the statement. There is not Faith "and" or "plus". It is faith alone, exclusively, nothing else but faith. Read it any way you like, but faith is the only thing that is mentioned in that verse--faith and faith alone. If you add anything else to that verse then it is you that is adding to the Word of God that which ought not to be there. Faith and faith alone is the teaching. Simple.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK said:
It seems that you are oblivious and/or unwilling to even attempt to comprehend the Word of God. Do me a favor. Take this passage and exegete it for me. Do it right here. I have already done it. Now it is your turn.

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Verse by verse, what does the passage mean HP?
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I am still waiting HP
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
DHK, is it comparable to the following assumptions of the word ‘alone??’

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him…….blood alone

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life…..His life alone

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?....by hope alone

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; ……the gospel alone

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain…..keeping in memory alone

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)…by grace alone

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;…by mercy alone

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?...by the words of a preacher alone

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish….by repentance alone

And last but not least: Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...by works alone
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
DHK, trying to explain certain passages of Scripture to you, when you refuse to recognize the clear separation/distinction between the grounds of salvation and conditions of salvation, is like trying to explain to a blind man a concept via a silent flannel graph presentation.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
DHK, is it comparable to the following assumptions of the word ‘alone??’

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him…….blood alone

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life…..His life alone

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?....by hope alone

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; ……the gospel alone

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain…..keeping in memory alone

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)…by grace alone

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;…by mercy alone

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?...by the words of a preacher alone

Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish….by repentance alone

And last but not least: Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...by works alone
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A case might be made for each one.
But the last three verses are taken out of context.
Romans 10:14 is not simply a verse but part of a sentence that is broken up. You need to quote the entire sentence for it to make sense.

Luke 13:3 refers to a specific instance or event in history and therefore is not applicable.

You won't even consider James 2:21 because of its context. I therefore will not discuss it with you. If you can't accept the context of the book there is no discussion.
But on the previous passages, yes, there are some valid points to be made.
 
A

Amy.G

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Amy, here is just a sampling of a few verses for you to consider.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Amy, did it ever occur to you to read why the Apostles said he wrote the books of John? It certainly was not to make us all sinners, now was it? 1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
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Oh no you don't. Address the verses I asked you to.


BTW, John also said "I write these things that you will KNOW that you have eternal life".


1Jo*5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
A

Amy.G

New Member
DHK said:
I am still waiting HP
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We're all ears HP.


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H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
Amy: 1Ki*8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
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HP: Upon this verse I would remark that to deny that men have become morally depraved would be to cavil at reason itself. All have sinned is a universal statement. I would add that there ‘may’ be possible exceptions, though very rare, in the OT. Eternity will answer that issue as to if any, such as Enoch and Elijah, did in fact walk sinless before God. In our dispensation, God calls on men everywhere to repent whih is a clear indicator that none that have lived since the time of Christ have lived sinless before God. One thing this verse does not prove ort establish is any moral depravity from birth.


Amy: Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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HP: One quick comment on this verse, is that by no means does the ’all’ include infants or those that have no capacity to reach the age of accountability. Those are not moral agents and as such cannot sin, neither can they in any manner act righteously.


Amy: 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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HP: This verse can be justly read just as “If we say that we have not sinned” referring to having sinned at some point in the past. It by no means establishes sin in a believers life as a necessity. The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sins that are past and all sins we will ever commit if the conditions for forgiveness are met. Christ did not come to save us ‘in’ our sins, but to save us ‘from’ our sins.’



Amy: Did you read that HP? If you say you have no sin, you have deceived yourself and the truth is NOT in you.
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HP: Again, that verse is not written to prove that all currently have sin in their lives, lest the blood of Jesus Christ be impotent to cleanse us from all sins. That verse simple says that if one denies they have ever sinned, they are not being truthful. I posted other verses that clearly prove that point beyond shadow of a doubt to which as I recall, you replied “Oh no you don't.” One such passage was" 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



Amy: Are you going to deny scripture?
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HP: No, I will not and have not denied the Scriptures.
 
C

ccrobinson

Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
I would add that there ‘may’ be possible exceptions, though very rare, in the OT. Eternity will answer that issue as to if any, such as Enoch and Elijah, did in fact walk sinless before God. In our dispensation, God calls on men everywhere to repent whih is a clear indicator that none that have lived since the time of Christ have lived sinless before God.
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I've already shown you that Elijah sinned and you got mad about it. You have a real problem accepting the truth of plain Scripture.

This verse can be justly read just as “If we say that we have not sinned” referring to having sinned at some point in the past.
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No, it doesn't say that. You can't just go twisting Scripture around to make it say what you want it to say. John's talking in the present tense, not in the past tense.

No, I will not and have not denied the Scriptures.
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You just try to make Scripture say what you want it to say.
 
H

Heavenly Pilgrim

New Member
CCrobinson: I've already shown you that Elijah sinned and you got mad about it. You have a real problem accepting the truth of plain Scripture.
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HP: You speak falsely of that which you know nothing about. Nothing you have ever said had made me ‘mad.’
Quote:
HP: This verse can be justly read just as “If we say that we have not sinned” referring to having sinned at some point in the past.

CCR: No, it doesn't say that. You can't just go twisting Scripture around to make it say what you want it to say. John's talking in the present tense, not in the past tense.
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HP: Believe as you will. There are many men well versed in the GK that will disagree with you on that point. Reason settles it for me as I indicated in my remarks. The blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sins that are past when we fulfill the stated conditions, and leaves us free from sin at that point if none other.
 
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