Is Roman Catholicism accurate in every detail?

[Eliyahu]

By the way, and I know our resident Catholic bashers here do not care, but again, Catholics do not worship Mary as a goddess. Their "veneration" of her does stop short of that. They believe -- quite wrongly -- that by honoring Jesus' mother so much, they are honoring Christ. I know, I know: `Who cares, the allegation makes nice ammunition, and darn it we are going to keep using it.'

When proselytizers willingly and persistently misrepresent the beliefs and sentiments of their desired converts, the desired converts are not as inclined to take them seriously. Frankly, people like our resident Catholic bashers make me think of the Catholics I know, and cause me to think more positively of their religion -- the exact opposite intent, I am sure. I can only imagine its effects on those who actually buy into it.

Further, when professing Christians present the truth while engaging in conduct Christ preached against, it does not honor Christ.

When I said God would torture and kill the 1.3 billion Catholics immediately if God applies the same treatment that Catholics did to the dissident Christians by condemning them as Heretics, It doesn't mean Mary worship only, but we can read the articles and record that Catholic killed the people just because they refused the Infant Baptism or performed the Re-Baptism, or because they refused Purgatory. On the contrary, if RCC people are found heretic because of the purgatory, and if God apply the same treatment which RCC did to the other dissident Christians, then wouldn't God have to torture and kill 1.3 billion all because they believe in Purgatory?
Another example is John Calvin who condemned Servetus as a Heretic because he denied Trinity and Infant Baptism. His concept of Godhead was not simple even though he admitted that God revealed Himself in Christ Jesus and that anyone who saw Jesus saw God, but he was wrong by denying the Deity of Jesus. but as for Infant Baptism he was right and Calvin was wrong. Calvin presented many ridiculous evidences and analogy to support the Infant Baptism. It was Calvin that asked the police to arrest Servetus in his church, and it was Calvin who presented all the accusations against him, and finally Calvin pursued the execution of Servetus by chopping him with axes, but the Geneva Council refused and burnt him alive, which happened on Oct 27, 1553.
Was Calvin right when he pursued the death penalty on Servetus?
The Bilbe says, let the tares grow until the harvest ( Matt 13) and An Heretic after the first and the second admonition Reject! ( Titus 3:10)
In his Bible Calvin may have found that the Heretics must be tortured and killed. Servetus was wrong with the Unitarian idea but was right with Infant Baptism, then does he deserve such horrible death just because of what he believed?

At the end Castellio wrote the serious essay on the issue of Christian handling the Heretics. Eventually he emphasized the right of the people to live as a heretic.

This was my repeated question, as U.S, allow the freedom of the people in many ways, can anyone live as a heretic?
Whenever I asked this question to RCC people, they refused the answer to it.
I know why RCC cannot answer this question. If they admit yes, they will be challenged about the past history of torturing and killing people.
If they don't admit it, they are exposed to the condemnation on themselves. This is the dilemma for RCC.

Darron,
What is your opinion ? Can you leave anyone who you think is a heretic, to live as a heretic? or do you think the government must take the action to kill them?

 

[BobRyan]

On the illegal immigration topic some "can only see racism and immigrants being disliked" - missing the entire issue of "the rule of law", an issue which all legal immigrants seem to have mastered quite well.


In the same way in a thread about the "details" of the RCC history, doctrine, morals and practice "as an institution" -- some can only see "a preference to not be Catholic and to be mean to individuals" -- missing the entire point of the hard questions that need to be addressed by the RCC in NOT facing up to its own history, doctrine and practice.


Let's take an approach that will make this painfully obvious to those who can only see this topic as "so may more bad things to say about Catholic Christians".

I have a few friends that are Hindu. They view Christianity as "one religion" and Budhists, Hindus, Islam etc as "other religions". The Nuance of "This Christian denomination flavor vs that one" is completely lost on them. They have only one question "are you a Christian that believes Hinduism is a false religion praying to and worshipping false gods?" --

And that "kind of christian" is in their minds "all christians".

So when they defend their own religion by attacking "Christians for the Dark Ages crimes against humanity" - I don't say "that was the wrong flavor of Christian" -- RATHER I have to respond AS a Christian representing CHRISTIANITY -

#1. I am sorry about that -- those actions were doctrinally and morally wrong. You are right those were crimes against humanity and wrong.

#2. Those actions carried out by the organized magesterium of the Christian church in the dark ages were NOT supported by the Bible - they were wrong. I ask that you consider what the Bible actually says rather than what the leadership of the Christian church (Popes, Bishops, Councils, Canon Law etc) in Europe was saying during the dark ages.

#3. I am happy to tell you that many Christians today see that as error and gladly confess that those actions WERE carried out at the direction of the Christian leaders in europe and were wrong and should not be practiced at all -- ever again. Torture and murder of those who differ with us is not acceptable - is not in harmony with the gospel we are given to preach in the Bible.

So while this answer is incredibly EASY to see and to give -- it is THE answer that the RC magesterium of TODAY CAN NOT give!

And the problem is that this leaves the RC members stuck in a very difficult spot.

(I could also go into the Hindu argument about prayers to the dead by Christian being nothing more or less than what THEY THEMSELVES are doing-- and ALSO how I have answered that)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When I said God would torture and kill the 1.3 billion Catholics immediately if God applies the same treatment that Catholics did to the dissident Christians by condemning them as Heretics, It doesn't mean Mary worship only, but we can read the articles and record that Catholic killed the people just because they refused the Infant Baptism or performed the Re-Baptism, or because they refused Purgatory. On the contrary, if RCC people are found heretic because of the purgatory, and if God apply the same treatment which RCC did to the other dissident Christians, then wouldn't God have to torture and kill 1.3 billion all because they believe in Purgatory?

EWTN's expert on RC history stated the same thing in another way saying that the RCC of the dark ages would surely have burned Billy Graham alive for teaching and preaching what he did in the 20th century.

There is nothing new here - both sides agree to this point.

Your argument is the same. you argue that since we all know that the fabricated doctrine of purgatory is pure RC tradition and pure error - then using the same kind of "measure" that the RCC used against it's detractors against the RC members of today - you could only have the same RC results as we all already saw in the Dark ages.

Those doctrines, morals methods and practices of the dark ages clearly lead to the "same result" every time. Whoever gets "put in the box" of the inquisitor gets torture and slaughtered.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Let's take an approach that will make this painfully obvious to those who can only see this topic as "so may more bad things to say about Catholic Christians".

To get to the point of the question again, the same question applies to the Protestants. It is not limited to RCC only. Again, Protestants shouldn't be condoned at all.

I already pointed out John Calvin, and many Baptists were beaten by Presbyterians in America before the Independence of USA.
Then Zwingli killed many Anabaptists, even Melanchoton praised the killing of Servetus, then Martin Luther instigated the people to kill the Jews. These were abominable to God, I am sure.

If anyone who is a Christian committed the Murder, Rape, Human body Traficking, Terror, or any other captial crimes, he or she may deserve such punishment.

But we can never find any clue in the Bible that one should be tortured and killed just because of what she or he believed or thought in the mind.

This is a very important question, whether we can torture and kill any other persons because we find they are Heretics.

Can we torture and kill Roman Catholics because we find them Heretics from the view point of the Bible? NOPE!

Can Roman Catholics torture and kill the other Christian believers just because they find the protestants are not calling Mary as Mother of God, not performing Infant Baptism, not believing Purgatory, not believing Transubstantiation ?
This is the question that should be answered by Roman Catholics.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

But we can never find any clue in the Bible that one should be tortured and killed just because of what she or he believed or thought in the mind.

Maybe you need to brush up on the Old Testament...We read God commanding the torture and killing of many, including that of women and children...Why did God do this?

Can Roman Catholics torture and kill the other Christian believers just because they find the protestants are not calling Mary as Mother of God, not performing Infant Baptism, not believing Purgatory, not believing Transubstantiation?
This is the question that should be answered by Roman Catholics.

Again, what’s your point Eliyahu? Are you suggesting that it’s normal practice that Roman Catholics are torturing and killing “Bible Christians” today?

Who’s torturing and killing Christians today Eliyahu simply for being Christian?
-

 

[Eliyahu]

Maybe you need to brush up on the Old Testament...We read God commanding the torture and killing of many, including that of women and children...Why did God do this?

So, you are still believing that RCC can torture and kill the people, right?
You don't know how to distinguish the OT and NT, and do not know why God said so during the OT times.
That's why RCC killed so many people who opposed the RCC teachings, and yet RCC do not repent about it!
Was Jesus wrong when He said " Let the tares grow until the harvest" in Matt 13 ?
Was Paul wrong when he said, just reject Heretic, in Titus 3:10? Didn't Jesus know the OT?

Again, what’s your point Eliyahu? Are you suggesting that it’s normal practice that Roman Catholics are torturing and killing “Bible Christians” today?
Who’s torturing and killing Christians today Eliyahu simply for being Christian?
-

Your own statements above betray these questions of yours.

RCC still believe that they were right to have tortured and killed the dissident Christians in the past, yet they defend that they don't do it now, which means that they can do it again in the future when they gain the power for all over the world, right?

 

[BobRyan]

...
So while this answer is incredibly EASY to see and to give -- it is THE answer that the RC magesterium of TODAY CAN NOT give!

And the problem is that this leaves the RC members stuck in a very difficult spot.

(I could also go into the Hindu argument about prayers to the dead by Christian being nothing more or less than what THEY THEMSELVES are doing-- and ALSO how I have answered that)

 

[Eliyahu]

I would like to hear any Infallible verification by RCC about the Extreme Unction after Death.

Is this in the Catholic Dogma? if it is not, how can we discern what doctrine of RCC is infallible and the others are fallible?

I posted it in #40, which says:

To perform this rite fully takes an appreciable time, but in cases of urgent necessity, when death is likely to occur before it can be completed, it is sufficient to employ a single unction (on the forehead, for instance) with the general form: "Through this holy unction may the Lord pardon thee whatever sins or faults thou hast committed." By the decree of 25 April, 1906, the Holy Office has expressly approved of this form for cases of urgent necessity.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm


You can find the objections by the believers in the following sentences:

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, cap. i, De Extr. Unct.) teaches that "this sacred unction of the sick was instituted by Christ Our Lord as a sacrament of the New Testament, truly and properly so called, being insinuated indeed in Mark [vi, 13] but commended to the faithful and promulgated" by James [Ep., v, 14, 15]; and the corresponding canon (can. i, De Extr. Unct.)

anathematizes anyone who would say "that extreme unction is not truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Christ Our Lord, and promulgated by the blessed Apostle James, but merely a rite received from the fathers, or a human invention".
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05716a.htm

But the saint, overhearing the debate, demanded that it should be given at once, and with his dying breath exclaimed: "Now dismiss thy servant in peace, because I have received all the sacraments of Thy mystery" (P.L., CXX, 1547).

But in practice, they often extend the Unction even after the death.

In case of Sudden Death, they have no time to repent and so on, and the person is already dead by the ACcidents. Then someone must call the priest immediately and RUSH to bring the priest, and do the Unction to the dead body while the body is still warm.

What should be done in case of sudden death?
Send for a priest right away, because Extreme Unction may be given even after a person is apparently dead.

Even when a person displays all the usual manifestations of death, the soul may still not have departed from the body. Therefore, the Church allows Extreme Unction to be administered for a item after "death" has occurred.

http://www.olrl.org/Lessons/Lesson27.shtml


What should be done in case of sudden death? Send for a priest right away because Extreme Unction may be given even after a person is apparently dead.

Even when a person displays all the usual manifestations of death, the soul may still not have departed from the body. Therefore the Church allows Extreme Unction to be administered for a time after "death" has occurred.

http://users.churchserve.com/asia/sfamy/extreme.htm

I may know more about Catholicism than the Catholic people do!

You can find the Unction in the Bible was used for healing, but not for pardoning the sick from the sin.



Can anyone still go to the heaven if a Catholic priest apply the special oil unto the body after death as above statements?

Are we still in danger of ANATHEMA if we reject the Extreme Unction?

 

[DHK]

gonna change my little picture to a target..........I love this Board....it has honed my apologetics over the years.....and of course the really keen Catholic bashers are prayed for every day when I say my rosary............. raying: :godisgood: :thumbs:

I pray for you too Briony. I must admit you have shown "grace under fire."

 

[Eliyahu]

gonna change my little picture to a target..........I love this Board....it has honed my apologetics over the years.....and of course the really keen Catholic bashers are prayed for every day when I say my rosary............. raying: :godisgood: :thumbs:

Why do you need the rosary for the prayer?

Is it used for counting how many times you repeated the prayer?

Isn't it disobeying what Jesus said when He said this?

Matthew 6:
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How come every bit of the RCC teachings which I illustrated in the first page are against the teachings of Bible?

We covered Extreme Unction, Infallible Papacy, Prayer to the Dead, Obligatory Celibacy, Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Mother of Church, etc, right?

 

[tragic_pizza]

... many Baptists were beaten by Presbyterians in America before the Independence of USA.

I need to see your evidence.

 

[Eliyahu]

I need to see your evidence.

In February 1646, William Witter and John Wood of Lynn were publicly rebuked and fined for denying infant baptism. John Spur was fined in July 1651 for the same “crime.”
In 1651, some Baptists were arrested and one was brutally whipped in Massachusetts.
The names of those arrested were John Clark, Obadiah Holmes, and John Crandal.
They were from a Baptist church in Newport, Rhode Island, and were visiting in the home of the aforementioned William Witter, an elderly Christian brother in Lynn, Massachusetts. At the time, there were no Baptist churches in Massachusetts.
On Sunday, they conducted a religious service in Witter’s home; and while Mr. Clark was preaching on the text of Revelation 3:10, two constables burst into the house, arrested them, and took them to the prison in Boston.
Holmes was beaten with 30 strokes of a three-corded whip. In a letter to a Baptist church in England, Holmes recounted the Lord’s mercy in strengthening him during this trial:

“…for in truth, as the strokes fell upon me, I had such a spiritual manifestation of God’s presence, as the like thereof I never had nor felt, nor can with fleshly tongue express, and the outward pain was so removed from me, that indeed I am not able to declare it to you, it was so easy to me, that I could well bear it, yea, and in a manner, felt it not, although it was grievous, as the spectators said, the man striking with all his strength (yea, spitting in his hands three times, as many affirmed) with a three corded whip, giving me therewith thirty strokes. When he had loosed me from the post, having joyfulness in my heart and cheerfulness in my countenance, as the spectators observed, I told the magistrates, you have struck me as with roses…”
​

Though he testified that he did not suffer from the actual beating, he did suffer much from its effects. The beating was so vicious on his back, sides, and stomach that Holmes could not lie down for many days afterwards.
About this time, two other Baptists, John Hazel and John Spur, were imprisoned because they encouraged and comforted Holmes after he was whipped.
After the first Baptist church was finally formed in Massachusetts in about 1656, the members “spent most of their time in courts and prisons; they were often fined, and some of them were banished.” The pastor of this church, Thomas Gould, was imprisoned for his faith. When this church later built a meetinghouse, the civil authorities, in 1680, nailed the doors shut and ordered them not to meet.
A second Baptist church was not formed in Massachusetts until 1749. This was in the town of Sturbridge and many of the members were imprisoned, fined, and had their property confiscated.
Another Baptist church formed in 1761 in the town of Ashfield was treated in the same manner. Many of the church members had all of their land and orchards confiscated.
3. This persecution continued against many other Baptist churches that were established in those days and did not end until Massachusetts became a colony of the United States and formed their state constitution in 1780. Through the efforts of the Baptists and other lovers of religious liberty, this contained a Bill of Rights guaranteeing freedom of faith.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/protestant-persecutions.html

It is not a secret that Protestants killed the Protestants, and that Catholics killed Catholics too.

 

[tragic_pizza]

OK. Thanks for the link.

 

[Eliyahu]

OK. Thanks for the link.

Indeed, we live in the tragic world, but we have a hope:

2 Cor 4:
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair.

why?

Because we have an exit to and from above.

 

[BobRyan]

There is one dange - the ignorance and superstition can lead to torture of the sainst... there is ANOTHER even GREATER danger - and that is that the institution doing it would declare ITSELF to be infallible in all matters of morals and doctrines and so be stuck in the position of having to refrain from admitting that the history of torture and murder "was wrong"!!

Oh what a door they "leave upen" in that case!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darron Steele]

As for the quote of Eliyahu that you quoted from me, well, I believe his sentiments are much stronger than yours. From the looks of it, he is holding ALL living Roman Catholics guilty for events that happened centuries ago, and which they would want nothing to do with repeating.

Let's cite an example - a quote from him showing it then.

in Christ,

Bob

Although you have seen it before in post #56:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1021908&postcount=56
Eliyahu wrote: "If God applies the same treatment which RCC did to the Christians by condemning them as Heretics, then He has to torture and kill all the 1.3 billion of Roman Catholics immediately, but God is patient with them waiting for their repentance."

I objected in post #57, and you quoted my objection in post #59. I suspect you are hoping that enough time has passed, but my memory is not that short. After some diversionary efforts by you, here is what I posted to you in post #63:

Mr. Ryan, I have been very clear on how I meant "hate."

It had nothing to do with what you allege I meant.

I believe the misrepresentation was deliberate. A thread you created for the purpose of misrepresenting someone was locked not too long ago
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=38492 . I have seen enough of similar in widespread practice among radical Churches of Christ to know how far that can go. If appearing to `win' is that important to you, I quit.

BobRyan, it seems like appearing to `win' arguments is so important to you that you are willing to cross the right/wrong line. Those stakes are too high for me.

 

[Eliyahu]

Darron,

I expected to hear from you about your profound comment on Extreme Enction after Death.

 

[Darron Steele]

Eliyahu: You can stop expecting.

If you genuinely want to know what they REALLY do and the REAL reasons why they do it, I am certain you can look it up in their Catechism or other Vatican-authorized official documents. I Googled up the Vatican's website: http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm .

 

[BobRyan]

Although you have seen it before in post #56:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1021908&postcount=56
Eliyahu wrote: "If God applies the same treatment which RCC did to the Christians by condemning them as Heretics, then He has to torture and kill all the 1.3 billion of Roman Catholics immediately, but God is patient with them waiting for their repentance."

I objected in post #57, and you quoted my objection in post #59.

You need to object on a factual basis sir.

That was the point that you are ignoring.

I suspect you are hoping that enough time has passed, but my memory is not that short. After some diversionary efforts by you, here is what I posted to you in post #63:

BobRyan, it seems like appearing to `win' arguments is so important to you that you are willing to cross the right/wrong line. Those stakes are too high for me.

Again - I would prefer facts to emotion. That is the very nature of the way I engage in debate sir. I understand that you may be happier with hollow accusations - that is your right.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu: You can stop expecting.

If you genuinely want to know what they REALLY do and the REAL reasons why they do it, I am certain you can look it up in their Catechism or other Vatican-authorized official documents. I Googled up the Vatican's website: http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm .

I wanted to hear from you, not from Vatican. They actually do it! and someone came even to us for the same service !