Is salvation a means or an end?

[quantumfaith]

I didn't say anything about free willers being arrogant or prideful in this post I don't believe.

I may be wrong Luke, and I am SURE you WILL correct me, but I sense hints of it often, and I am confident that you have said something to the effect somewhere, I am just not skilled enough with technology skills to locate things.

Sometimes I wonder, if you are not simply just a very bright young man enjoying yanking some chains as an intellectual exercise.

 

[Luke2427]

Please, Please, Please try to understand, one that feels that free will is part of the design, and one that feels that God is motivated by Love, not JUST glory, is not being arrogantly prideful.

I see you responded in a detailed fashion but it is hard to differentiate your words from mine.

 

[Luke2427]

I may be wrong Luke, and I am SURE you WILL correct me, but I sense hints of it often, and I am confident that you have said something to the effect somewhere, I am just not skilled enough with technology skills to locate things.

Sometimes I wonder, if you are not simply just a very bright young man enjoying yanking some chains as an intellectual exercise.

That is not it.

I think your idea that God's motive is LOVE is askew.

LOVE has an object.
If love for man is God's primary motive then MAN has intrinsic value which draws such love as displayed at Calvary.

Answer this question:

WHY does God LOVE man?

Is man so loveable?

 

[menageriekeeper]

If God could have created a world where he could display his mercy and grace apart from sin and suffering and billions rolling in the lake of fire forever- why didn't He?

Do YOU suppose that he WILLED for sin to exist????????

Oh MY!

How do we know He didn't/hasn't? We humans like to pretend we are the end all be all of God's creative inclinations but the scripture teaches just the opposite.

Actually, I believe sin existed before mankind. Was it not the sin of pride that caused Lucifer to be cast from heaven? If the angels were capable of sin, then sin existed. Their definition of sin is the same as ours: disobedience to God. I believe that for reasons of His own, that He hasn't made clear to mankind, God allowed man (whom He made in His own image) to be tempted toward sin. He didn't create sin, but He allowed it.

 

[Luke2427]

How do we know He didn't/hasn't? We humans like to pretend we are the end all be all of God's creative inclinations but the scripture teaches just the opposite.

Actually, I believe sin existed before mankind. Was it not the sin of pride that caused Lucifer to be cast from heaven? If the angels were capable of sin, then sin existed. Their definition of sin is the same as ours: disobedience to God. I believe that for reasons of His own, that He hasn't made clear to mankind, God allowed man (whom He made in His own image) to be tempted toward sin. He didn't create sin, but He allowed it.

He did will it. That is Calvinism.

God worketh ALL things after the counsel of his own will.

 

[quantumfaith]

That is not it.

I think your idea that God's motive is LOVE is askew.

LOVE has an object.
If love for man is God's primary motive then MAN has intrinsic value which draws such love as displayed at Calvary.

Answer this question:

WHY does God LOVE man?

Is man so loveable?

Because, "GOD IS LOVE" and it is His sovereign right to do so. And He CHOSE to be consistent with HIS own nature.

 

[menageriekeeper]

He did will it. That is Calvinism.

He did will what? Sin? Willing it and allowing it are closer to the right idea than creating it. I reject the notion that God created sin. (this is another one of those things I don't believe has been made clear to man)

WAIT????? You didn't just call me a Calvinist did you????? Cause the only thing I hate worse than being called Arminian is Calvinst! :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

He did will what? Sin? Willing it and allowing it are closer to the right idea than creating it. I reject the notion that God created sin. (this is another one of those things I don't believe has been made clear to man)

WAIT????? You didn't just call me a Calvinist did you????? Cause the only thing I hate worse than being called Arminian is Calvinst! :laugh:

No Calvinist would say that God "created" sin- most arminians I know would not say God willed it.

But he did will it.

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, I am going to "Choose" to have a Merry Christmas. I hope everyone else here will either do the same or be predestinated to do so.

God Bless Us Everyone.

 

[percho]

What you will not do is answer the challenge I have put to you NUMEROUS times:

How does God DISPLAY mercy upon sinners without sin?

How does Christ receive praise for being a Lamb and dying on Calvary for sins without sin?

Because he was made sin for us.