Is salvation a means or an end?

[HankD]

Is salvation what Calvary was all about and that's it- In other words, is the reason Christ died just because we were that valuable and he died just to save us.

Or is salvation a means to an end- that God be glorified forever?

Is salvation a means or an end?

Is it mainly about US or about Christ and his glory?

Hi Luke,

My take is that it could be both.

HankD

 

[Luke2427]

Wait...she is worthy to you? Why?

Did you read post 14? Christ paid a HUGE price to ransom sinners. He gave His life, the highest price ever paid for anything or anyone! I know we would both give our lives for our wives or pay whatever we had to free them from destruction! If that's not worth, what is?

He gave his life to ransom sinners so "that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Eph 2.

Explain what INFINITE worth he saw in you to warrant paying such a high price to save you.

I bet you can't.

The only sensible answer is that there is NO INTRINSIC worth in you that would warrant such a sacrifice- the worth is the GLORY he would receive for loving you and saving you.

YOU are not worth ANYTHING- neither am I.

YOU and I are worthy of HELL- nothing more.

GRACE means, not that he saw us as worthy- MY HEAVENS NO!!!- Grace means the OPPOSITE. HE saved us BECAUSE we were not worthy so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace.

 

[webdog]

Again, you didn't answer...why is your wife worthy to you? Is it something she deserves, or something inherent about her that makes her worthy...or is it simply because TO YOU she is worthy?

Is it something about ME that is worthy? No! Is it anything I did? No!

I also thought the "elect" were chosen from before the foundation of time for salvation. That has "worth" written all over it!

 

[Luke2427]

Again, you didn't answer...why is your wife worthy to you? Is it something she deserves, or something inherent about her that makes her worthy...or is it simply because TO YOU she is worthy?

Is it something about ME that is worthy? No! Is it anything I did? No!

I also thought the "elect" were chosen from before the foundation of time for salvation. That has "worth" written all over it!

I did answer that question in post 19- are you not reading my posts?

I don't think DESERVE has ANYTHING to do with love.

Many times it has the opposite.

We don't love people because they DESERVE it- we love people because God commands it.

So one, including my wife, does not have to be WORTHY TO ME, for me to love her.

Consider Hosea- he was to take a wife of whoredoms to ILLUSTRATE that God loves people who are NOT WORTHY.

Your wife illustration does not pan out, Webdog. It does not even come close to proving what you want it to prove.

 

[webdog]

I did answer that question in post 19- are you not reading my posts?

You said in post 19 she is worthy, and that is why you chose her. That is not a reason. I asked you to clarify...I can read just fine.

I don't think DESERVE has ANYTHING to do with love.

Neither do I, nor did I ever allude to that.

We don't love people because they DESERVE it- we love people because God commands it.

Partly right...we choose to love, nobody commanded God to love us.

So one, including my wife, does not have to be WORTHY TO ME, for me to love her.

NO, she is worthy to you BECAUSE you love her. You are trying so hard to avoid saying that as it will contradict everything you have said on worth.

Consider Hosea- he was to take a wife of whoredoms to ILLUSTRATE that God loves people who are NOT WORTHY.

...and by Him loving them showed their worth to HIM, NOT us.

Your wife illustration does not pan out, Webdog. It does not even come close to proving what you want it to prove.

The way you danced around my questions prove otherwise.

 

[Luke2427]

NO, she is worthy to you BECAUSE you love her. You are trying so hard to avoid saying that as it will contradict everything you have said on worth.

No, no. That is not true at all.

Love has NOTHING to do with WORTH- period.

We are commanded to love IN SPITE of worth. This is what you cannot seem to get.

God does not show us how worthy we are by loving us- he loves us in spite of the fact that we are NOT worthy to show his grace.

...and by Him loving them showed their worth to HIM, NOT us.
The way you danced around my questions prove otherwise.

The only worth we are to him is in so much that by us he can manifest his glory for his great grace.


He does not save us because we have some intrinsic worth that compels him to sacrifice Christ for us. That is a terrible, terrible theology that drives one to think such a horrible thing.

God sets his affection on those he DOES NOT deem worthy.

 

[Amy.G]

Have you not noticed how many times I have all-capped DISPLAY?

He NEEDS to have the fall if he is to DISPLAY his glory to the fullest.

If not, please explain to me how he DISLAY grace and MERCY without SIN?

Please explain to me how there is a Calvary without sin.

No. I have not noticed where you used the word "display". Please re-post it.

God does not NEED anything. He is IAM, all sufficient. He chose to be merciful to His creation because it is in His nature to do so.

 

[Amy.G]

Does the eye of the divine Beholder look at you and see something WORTHY of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

Why must you argue so much and make simple things so complicated?


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



God LOVED the world. He gave His Son for the world that He loved. He loved the world even while we were sinners.

So simple a child can understand.

 

[luke1616]

Heaven is a destination. Jesus came to bring us back to a relationship with the Father. Then when we deny ourselves and He is more and more in us, we go stomp the devil, tearing down strongholds, healing the sick, casting out devils, reaching the lost. We do everything Jesus did and greater works we will do if we can only believe.

 

[quantumfaith]

No, no. That is not true at all.

Love has NOTHING to do with WORTH- period.

We are commanded to love IN SPITE of worth. This is what you cannot seem to get.

God does not show us how worthy we are by loving us- he loves us in spite of the fact that we are NOT worthy to show his grace.

Very true, he does love us despite our unworthiness, but when he grants us this grace, mercy and love, and we are saved, it makes us worthy. Perhaps this is what WD is attempting to say. I hope you dont disagree with this?

 

[percho]

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

 

[percho]

Is this the salvation we are speaking of and did it come about at a precise moment in time? If so when was that moment?

He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Luke2427]

Very true, he does love us despite our unworthiness, but when he grants us this grace, mercy and love, and we are saved, it makes us worthy. Perhaps this is what WD is attempting to say. I hope you dont disagree with this?

Grace does not MAKE one worthy. If it did then the moment one became worthy their position is no longer of grace.

One cannot have a standing of grace and worthiness at the same time.

This is why the Bible never uses this language about people being WORTHY of Christ's sacrifice. This is a common erroneous inference made by Arminians. Calvinists, having a right view of God, almost never make this mistake.

This is a fundamental theological issue that we are discussing here.


God's supreme motive. What is it?

I think those who are non-reformed think it is man. Man is so precious to God that God was willing to send his Son to save man.

And in a sense this is true. Man is precious, but not because of anything IN MAN or ABOUT MAN. What makes man precious is that man is sinful. As a sinful being God is able to, by him, show the exceeding riches of his grace in the ages to come.

Therefore, as the reformed see it, God primary motive is that which is highest and noblest in the universe- HIS GLORY.


For God to not have as his highest motive the highest good would be for God to sin. His motive would be less than what it ought to be. So God, as a perfect being, must do what he does with the GREATEST of intentions, the purest of motives. The greatest motive for ANYONE to do ANYTHING is God's glory.

God's glory is the primary motive for the universe.

God's glory is the primary motive for the creation of man.

God's glory is the primary motive for decreeing the fall of man.

God's glory is the primary motive for Calvary.

Man is not so precious that God could not bear to let him perish. Some say the image of God drove God to count him as so precious- but the Bible NEVER teaches this. The Bible NEVER teaches that God needed to save man because man bore God's image. In fact, both sides of the theological spectrum admit that God lets BILLIONS who bear his image perish.

No. Man is precious for the same reason that anything is precious- that God, BY HIM, can glorify God.

 

[Luke2427]

No. I have not noticed where you used the word "display". Please re-post it.

God does not NEED anything. He is IAM, all sufficient. He chose to be merciful to His creation because it is in His nature to do so.

I am not going to go back through all of my posts- suffice it to say I am not lying.

The idea that God can do anything because he is God is erroneous. That is what you are saying when you say that God doesn't need anything.

There are things that God cannot do. For instance God cannot change something and leave it exactly the way it is at the same time. God can not make something exist and not exist at the same time. God cannot lie.

And God CANNOT DISPLAY his grace and mercy on sinners without sin- period. IF God is going to display his grace and mercy on sinners, he needs for sin to exist. It is nonsensical and illogical to deny this.

 

[Amy.G]

The idea that God can do anything because he is God is erroneous. That is what you are saying when you say that God doesn't need anything.

This is what is so frustrating about trying to have a conversation with you. You twist words and turn everything into a huge argument.

I did not say a word about what God can and cannot do. You are twisting my words (again).

Here is what I said:
"God does not NEED anything. He is IAM, all sufficient. He chose to be merciful to His creation because it is in His nature to do so."


Go argue with yourself. You are unteachable. :wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

This is what is so frustrating about trying to have a conversation with you. You twist words and turn everything into a huge argument.

I did not say a word about what God can and cannot do. You are twisting my words (again).

Here is what I said:
"God does not NEED anything. He is IAM, all sufficient. He chose to be merciful to His creation because it is in His nature to do so."


Go argue with yourself. You are unteachable. :wavey:

What you will not do is answer the challenge I have put to you NUMEROUS times:

How does God DISPLAY mercy upon sinners without sin?

How does Christ receive praise for being a Lamb and dying on Calvary for sins without sin?

 

[menageriekeeper]

There are things that God cannot do. For instance God cannot change something and leave it exactly the way it is at the same time. God can not make something exist and not exist at the same time. God cannot lie.

And God CANNOT DISPLAY his grace and mercy on sinners without sin- period. IF God is going to display his grace and mercy on sinners, he needs for sin to exist. It is nonsensical and illogical to deny this.

Match the colors please.

Whoa, aren't you a Calvinist? What do you mean there are things God can't do? Even us nonCal's phrase this to show that there are things God DOES not do, but not can't do. You need to take the rules He set for humanity out of your logic equation that explains what God can and cannot do. He cannot do anything that goes against His nature, hence:

God cannot lie, because He has told us it is not in His nature to lie.

Here again, just because God choses to show His mercy and grace on us in this manner, does not mean He couldn't have found a way to do so without sin. You are limiting both God's soveriegnity and His creative ability. You'd do better to say that from our human perspective it seems we must have an antagonist (sin) in order to tell the story of our protagonist (God). But don't limit God to the extent of our own imaginations or logical ability.

 

[Luke2427]

Match the colors please.

Whoa, aren't you a Calvinist? What do you mean there are things God can't do? Even us nonCal's phrase this to show that there are things God DOES not do, but not can't do. You need to take the rules He set for humanity out of your logic equation that explains what God can and cannot do. He cannot do anything that goes against His nature, hence:

God cannot lie, because He has told us it is not in His nature to lie.

Here again, just because God choses to show His mercy and grace on us in this manner, does not mean He couldn't have found a way to do so without sin. You are limiting both God's soveriegnity and His creative ability. You'd do better to say that from our human perspective it seems we must have an antagonist (sin) in order to tell the story of our protagonist (God). But don't limit God to the extent of our own imaginations or logical ability.

If God could have created a world where he could display his mercy and grace apart from sin and suffering and billions rolling in the lake of fire forever- why didn't He?

Do YOU suppose that he WILLED for sin to exist????????

Oh MY!

 

[quantumfaith]

Grace does not MAKE one worthy. If it did then the moment one became worthy their position is no longer of grace.

One cannot have a standing of grace and worthiness at the same time.

This is why the Bible never uses this language about people being WORTHY of Christ's sacrifice. This is a common erroneous inference made by Arminians. Calvinists, having a right view of God, almost never make this mistake.

This is a fundamental theological issue that we are discussing here.


God's supreme motive. What is it?

I think those who are non-reformed think it is man. Man is so precious to God that God was willing to send his Son to save man.

In the words of Ronald Reagan...."there you go again" No one has, or is attempting to claim that man is "so precious" creating the willingness in God to send Christ

And in a sense this is true. Man is precious, but not because of anything IN MAN or ABOUT MAN.

Man is precious because the Word shows from cover to cover God's willingness to make the provision of salvation and grant man grace and mercy, that is the only reason man is worthy.

Please try not to tell me or others "what we believe" simply because we do not see it exactly as do you.

What makes man precious is that man is sinful. As a sinful being God is able to, by him, show the exceeding riches of his grace in the ages to come.

Therefore, as the reformed see it, God primary motive is that which is highest and noblest in the universe- HIS GLORY.

I again I believe it is both Love and Glory. For me, Love first, then Glory.

For God to not have as his highest motive the highest good would be for God to sin. His motive would be less than what it ought to be. So God, as a perfect being, must do what he does with the GREATEST of intentions, the purest of motives. The greatest motive for ANYONE to do ANYTHING is God's glory.

God's glory is the primary motive for the universe.


God's glory is the primary motive for the creation of man.

God's glory is the primary motive for decreeing the fall of man.

God's glory is the primary motive for Calvary.

Man is not so precious that God could not bear to let him perish.

Correct, but he didnt just destroy things and start over, did he?

Some say the image of God drove God to count him as so precious- but the Bible NEVER teaches this. The Bible NEVER teaches that God needed to save man because man bore God's image. In fact, both sides of the theological spectrum admit that God lets BILLIONS who bear his image perish.

No. Man is precious for the same reason that anything is precious- that God, BY HIM, can glorify God.

Please, Please, Please try to understand, one that feels that free will is part of the design, and one that feels that God is motivated by Love, not JUST glory, is not being arrogantly prideful.

 

[Luke2427]

Please, Please, Please try to understand, one that feels that free will is part of the design, and one that feels that God is motivated by Love, not JUST glory, is not being arrogantly prideful.

I didn't say anything about free willers being arrogant or prideful in this post I don't believe.