SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Explain
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Is salvation available?
- Thread starter Van
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Explain
When a person has no appetite for truth, they go on and on about everything else and avoid the verses that bring truth.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You speak from experience as you are well known to avoid all the passages that are against reformed theology
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Calvin himself explained it better than I ever could.
For God so loved the world. | Monergism
There must be some balance that I think Calvin shows. God is indeed sovereign and the offer is universal and yes it is OK to use the word "offer". If you look at John 3:16 as proving that everyone in the world has an equal chance at salvation then that won't work. Non Calvinist missionaries I know talk constantly about how it's not fair that we hear the gospel every week but many have never heard, or they don't have access to a Bible. So for a non-Calvinist, who likes to make Calvinism look like it has an unjust God then you have some explaining to do too.
But for Calvinists who have so gone into divine determinism that they believe nothing we do is necessary to be done or has any actual contribution to how we end up - well, all I can say is none of the Puritan preachers of old would recognize that type of "Calvinism".
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You left out the important passage from Calvin on John 3.16
That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found inthe world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.
Universal Death of Jesus Christ
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, verse five goes into more detail about the predestination and the chosen. Read it again and quit dodging the issue.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The Greek word does not necessarily mean predestined. When you guys can grasp this truth you will understand better
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
No SBG. It's in the 5th paragraph down I believe but thanks for listing the quote for everyone else. Like I said, he seemed to have a fairly balanced approach.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Calvin's own words
Everyone without exception can be saved
This is NOT modern day Calvinism
Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones. The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..
Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Well you may have a point. I don't know but in my own experience I have not found as a rule that Calvinists are not interested in soul winning and I know of at least one Calvinist who has started street preaching. Most give heavily to missions and the whole theme of our church is to see people come to Christ. I think you could also give some grace to folks on a theological debate site. Of course they will advocate their theology with vigor. I don't know most of these guys personally but from what I can tell many of them are heavily involved in evangelism. What a Calvinistic theology does do is keep you from falling into techniques and gimmicks that can wreck peoples chance of getting a clear picture of Christ and Him crucified. And I have personally seen this happen and sadly have been a part of it in non-Calvinist "soul winning".
Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones. The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..
Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.
The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes an individual election for salvation before creation. Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore salvation is available to the lost and God has not precluded the opportunity.
Two very different gospels...
Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.
The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes an individual election for salvation before creation. Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore salvation is available to the lost and God has not precluded the opportunity.
Two very different gospels...
So, a Christian can be held responsible and accountable for others going to the eternal flame?
Can you cite some scripture?
[add]
The evangelical Southern Baptist church that I grew up in, I'll never forget the sermons, something along the lines of:
"On the day of judgement there'll be those bound for hell that will point the fingers at you and say "I'm going to hell because you never told me about Jesus Christ".
Is that what you believe?
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
LOLCalvinistic teaching on salvation is a GIMMICK
That's like saying "Paul's condemnation of the Judaizers was a gimmick."
But hey, you are free to call salvation by grace a GIMMICK if that's how you feel.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2 to speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:1-7 ).
SBG, when disagreeing with those who understand the Bible differently, please keep in mind what the Lord tells us here.
We as believers are not to speak evil of any man, my friend.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with Paul but the unbiblical nonsense that is pushed by Calvinists as Bible teaching
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Again, SBG,
Please read what precedes it:
" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
Here's what I see when I read this:
1) The believer is blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
2) God has chosen them "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. For what purpose?
3) So that they should be holy and without blame before Him, in love.
4) They were predestinated ( their destiny set before-hand ) to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to what? The good pleasure of His will.
5) This was all done to the praise of the glory of His grace.
According to the above, the reason that God blessed the believer was because they were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world.
The purpose for that choosing, is so that they would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Not only that, their destiny was set by God to be His adopted children, and that adoption was by Jesus Christ to Himself, as His brethren ( Romans 8:29 ).
Is that not what you see when you read it?
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world is precisely that,
The same as 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:6-24, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, and 1 Peter 1:2 all state...
and I find myself continually amazed that you're not seeing the very words on the page.
To me Ephesians 1:4 clearly says two things, not one....
1) The believers at Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
2) so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
How you keep missing the first part I do not know for sure, but the words are clear to me.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21-25 ).
That is why, SBG...
Because the Lord has decided to gather his people to Himself using what is foolish to men...
Preaching Christ and Him crucified for sinners.
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