Is Salvation Conditional?

[quantumfaith]

http://delightinthelord.com/sovereignty-human-responsibility-debate/

 

[humblethinker]

If one reads all of John 3, one will realize that even 3:16 doesn't place conditions on a man, but rather on God. Jesus explains salvation and the Holy Spirit then castigates a "teacher" of the law in Jerusalem for not understanding that the human component is not the issue ("How can one be born again?"). Further, right after the pronouncement in 3:16, Christ explains that He has not come to condemn the world, but that some might be saved by Him. The entire affair is Jesus correcting the teaching of a man of Israel who mistakenly thought that BY HIS ACTIONS one could be reconciled with God.

If salvation is conditional upon any of us, none of us has any hope at all, for we can neither access God unless He grants us that right via grace, nor can we atone for any of our separating sin, either by keeping the law, believing, etc. All hinges on whether or not God does what only God can do, hence my answer.

I agree, insomuch as 'acts' are different than 'beliefs' or 'changing one's mind'. "If one reads all of John 3, one will realize" that the obvious words and language Jesus was using was to make the point that 'believing on Him' was a conditional part being born again and having everlasting life whereas Nicodemas considered 'actions' (works of the law) to be a conditional part of salvation. Jesus was distinguishing between what was conditional, ie belief, and what was not conditional, ie 'actions'. It seems that you are saying that Jesus' was not trying to get Nicodemas to see that he needed to believe but that what he was really saying to Nicodemas was that you can't even 'believe', much less 'act'. If that's what Nicodemus was supposed to understand then why didn't Jesus simply say that and make illustrations to that point?


Verses in John 3 regarding 'belief':

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [/b]believeth[/b] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It seems very reasonable for Nicodemus to think that Jesus was telling him that he, and whoever else, belives in Him would have eternal life.
Would you say that this is same idea is not what Jesus intended Nicodemus to understand? We would be correct in thinking that he understands that Jesus is indicating that Nicodemus' salvation is conditional upon believing in Him. It doesn't follow that Nicodemus would think that Jesus is making the point that he can't believe, therefore we should not try to use this passage to make the point that man cannot believe either.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life

These verses indicate that salvation is conditional upon belief. From these verses, and all of John 3, it does not follow that salvation is unconditional. My point in the OP was that salvation was conditional and that there were no verses in the bible that, in any way, indicate that salvation is not conditional.

I reassert the following with a clarified meaning: "None of the other verses (that were given above) indicate that salvation is necessarily not conditional <upon man believing>. If you feel I overlooked one then please explain how that verse is indicating such." Are there any verses indicating that salvation is not conditional <upon man believing>?

 

[glfredrick]

I agree, insomuch as 'acts' are different than 'beliefs' or 'changing one's mind'. "If one reads all of John 3, one will realize" that the obvious words and language Jesus was using was to make the point that 'believing on Him' was a conditional part being born again and having everlasting life whereas Nicodemus considered 'actions' (works of the law) to be a conditional part of salvation. Jesus was distinguishing between what was conditional, ie belief, and what was not conditional, ie 'actions'. It seems that you are saying that Jesus' was not trying to get Nicodemas to see that he needed to believe but that what he was really saying to Nicodemas was that you can't even 'believe', much less 'act'. If that's what Nicodemus was supposed to understand then why didn't Jesus simply say that and make illustrations to that point?

I think that Jesus did just that... You are astute to have seen that in the text. Most people seem to get hung up on 3:16 and "the whole world" and miss the context of the entire pericope.

Why didn't Jesus make it more plain? It would appear, from a reading of the gospels, that Jesus simply did not do that as a part of His earthly ministry. He spoke in parables, asked people to not repeat what they heard, was part of His Father revealing supernatural content, but did not see those things as something to be grasped. Rather, He seemed to depend on the Holy Spirit confirming in an individual's heart the truths of God, including the gift of faith and repentance.

Could Jesus have just made it plain and had a huge following? I'm sure He could have. Did He? Not really... Hearing, they never hear, seeing, they never see... Perhaps, as Jesus seemed to indicate, the elect could hear and see Him and the non-elect never did. That is a discussion for another post, but the evidence seems to be there in the gospels to make that charge. Even when Peter made his world-changing realization, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God..." Jesus commended the Father for revealing that to Peter. That was not a choice that Peter made based on the circumstances -- Jesus, Himself, said that it was not! Yet, when we read passages like that, we see "choice." Who are we to believe? Jesus or our modern interpretation? I "choose" Christ (Ha! As if it were up to me... :laugh

Verses in John 3 regarding 'belief':

I read my Bible, I'm familiar with those verses. I am also familiar with the concept that we cannot believe who we do not know, and that dead people believe nothing. Without Christ making us "born again from above" we not only don't believe, we cannot believe!

It seems very reasonable for Nicodemus to think that Jesus was telling him that he, and whoever else, belives in Him would have eternal life.
Would you say that this is same idea is not what Jesus intended Nicodemus to understand? We would be correct in thinking that he understands that Jesus is indicating that Nicodemus' salvation is conditional upon believing in Him. It doesn't follow that Nicodemus would think that Jesus is making the point that he can't believe, therefore we should not try to use this passage to make the point that man cannot believe either.

I think that was exactly what Jesus was telling Nicodemus. We also see Nicodemus walking away from Christ without a recorded conversion. Later, it may be that Nicodemus indeed came to faith in Christ. There is some evidence, but it did not happen during this particular encounter, or at least if it did, we are not informed. Seems that if merely seeing and hearing from Jesus were all it takes, that Nicodemus would have "believed" right then and there and would have become one of Jesus' followers, but there is no evidence at that time that he did!

I believe that salvation is dependent on God's sovereign action alone. We bring nothing to the table, save our dead sinful, and rebellious bodies. No merit, no action, no faith, no belief, nothing... It is all Jesus, sealed and enacted by the Holy Spirit, as directed by the Father in heaven.

These verses indicate that salvation is conditional upon belief. From these verses, and all of John 3, it does not follow that salvation is unconditional. My point in the OP was that salvation was conditional and that there were no verses in the bible that, in any way, indicate that salvation is not conditional.

Again, yes, they are. But you seem to feel that belief is something WE do. I find in the Word that there is no belief without God's action first.

I reassert the following with a clarified meaning: "None of the other verses (that were given above) indicate that salvation is necessarily not conditional <upon man believing>. If you feel I overlooked one then please explain how that verse is indicating such." Are there any verses indicating that salvation is not conditional <upon man believing>?

You are correct, if you see that God gives belief. If belief is contingent on our own actions while yet dead in our sin and trespasses, then you are incorrect.

 

[Robert Snow]

Further, right after the pronouncement in 3:16, Christ explains that He has not come to condemn the world, but that some might be saved by Him...

What version are you referring to that says "some" might be saved in John 3:17? I haven't been able to find it.

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[glfredrick]

What version are you referring to that says "some" might be saved in John 3:17? I haven't been able to find it.

I was not "quoting" a version, so give it a rest already. Did you see quotation marks? Or do you think that "all" will be saved (doesn't say that either!).

 

[JesusFan]

What version are you referring to that says "some" might be saved in John 3:17? I haven't been able to find it.

same idea found in hebrews, in that Jesus is the great High priest, who died and atoned for the sins of the "many" but not the "all!"

 

[preacher4truth]

Election is unconditional, leaving salvation conditioned upon election, Gods choosing, Gods purpose, and Gods calling.

We simply preach Christ crucified, buried, and raised from the dead and His elect come forth as believers through this preaching.

 

[JesusFan]

Election is unconditional, leaving salvation conditioned upon election, Gods choosing, Gods purpose, and Gods calling.

We simply preach Christ crucified, buried, and raised from the dead and His elect come forth as believers through this preaching.

yes, this where the dividing line between us here on the BB regarding salvation!

Either salvation is totally of/from the Lord, or else we somehow 'contribute" help Him out in the saving process!

 

[WestminsterMan]

Faith is not a work.

Faith is an assent of the will, and is therefore a work.

WM

 

[Don]

Faith is an assent of the will, and is therefore a work.

WM

Not according to those here who say that God works faith in us.

 

[preacher4truth]

Faith is an assent of the will, and is therefore a work.

WM

Not an assent of the will.


But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

Faith is not an assent of the will of man. It is a gift from God, through the Word, Romans 10:17.

 

[JesusFan]

Not according to those here who say that God works faith in us.

Think more accurate to say thast we hold that since man is impossible to produce this by being fallen and depraived, that God has to and does grant the Gift of Faith as part of the "salvation package"
Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[old regular]

Salvation

Eternal Salvation is unconditional, things we are saved from in time/
time salvation = conditions Eld.Slone

 

[Amy.G]

Faith is an assent of the will, and is therefore a work.

WM

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Can it be any clearer?


When we put faith in Jesus, we STOP working and we REST in His work.

 

[JesusFan]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Can it be any clearer?


When we put faith in Jesus, we STOP working and we REST in His work.

faith IS required by God in order for us to get saved, its just that he gives it to us , as we cannot produce it in ourselves!