Is Satan Omnipresent?

[Glory Bound]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
Let's just keep in mind that though Satan is not omnipresent, "on earth is not his equal," as the great reformer once said.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This statement is all well and good, but doesn't prove anything regarding the original question of Satan's ability (or lack thereof) to be everywhere.

I don't think the Bible teaches that Satan is omnipresent. Obviously there are many who do, because I've heard many, both laypersons and preachers, indicate that Satan is tempting THEM. Either Satan has deemed that person important enough to spend his "valuable" time with, or else Satan can be with that person as well as with all of the other people whom he tempts.

Or . . . else Satan can only be at one place, at one time, and the temptation felt by the person is coming from their own sinful nature. There is scripture to back up this view of the sinful nature.

 

[Joe Meert]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:

This statement is all well and good, but doesn't prove anything regarding the original question of Satan's ability (or lack thereof) to be everywhere.

I don't think the Bible teaches that Satan is omnipresent. Obviously there are many who do, because I've heard many, both laypersons and preachers, indicate that Satan is tempting THEM. Either Satan has deemed that person important enough to spend his "valuable" time with, or else Satan can be with that person as well as with all of the other people whom he tempts.

Or . . . else Satan can only be at one place, at one time, and the temptation felt by the person is coming from their own sinful nature. There is scripture to back up this view of the sinful nature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JM: Is the existence of Satan taken on faith? I know many christians assign 'bad things' to Satan, but there is no scientific evidence for the existence of such an entity. I suppose one needs faith in God and Satan both.

Cheers

Joe Meert

 

[ddavis]

Phillip, there are scripture to show God is all that was mentioned, so are you wanting scripture showing that satan isn't? if so i would ask you to show me scripture where satan is any of those mentioned. maybe that's why no one can show you one because its like hens teeth, there are none.

 

[Helen]

1 Peter 5:8-9a says "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith."

If Satan has to roam around, he is not omnipresent! He does NOT 'follow you around all day.' Our sins come from our own hearts (James 1:13-15). The most Satan can do is what God allows him to do (as in the case of Job), although Satan does accuse the saints before God 'day and night' (Revelation 12:10).

Satan is a created being (Ezekiel 28:13-14 and Colossians 1:16) and is thus no way equal to God. One does not 'believe' in Satan, but one is wise to acknowledge his existence.

By the way, Joe Meert is an atheist and should not be posting on this board.

 

[Glory Bound]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
By the way, Joe Meert is an atheist and should not be posting on this board.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well that certainly helps me to understand his response!


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
1 Peter 5:8-9a says "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith."

If Satan has to roam around, he is not omnipresent! He does NOT 'follow you around all day.' Our sins come from our own hearts (James 1:13-15). The most Satan can do is what God allows him to do (as in the case of Job), although Satan does accuse the saints before God 'day and night' (Revelation 12:10).

Satan is a created being (Ezekiel 28:13-14 and Colossians 1:16) and is thus no way equal to God. One does not 'believe' in Satan, but one is wise to acknowledge his existence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I believe also, Helen. But then how do you handle those who will take the last part of the verses you quoted from 1 Peter 5:8-9a regarding "Your enemy" and "Resist him"? Many I know will quote these verses to "prove" that Satan attacks each of us personally.

My opinion here is that Satan is "our enemy" in the same way that Bin Laden is "our enemy". We (as a nation) are fighting against Bin Laden. In the same fashion, I see us as Christians (as a whole) fighting against Satan, and his schemes. But not personally, on a one-to-one basis.

When I bring these subjects up with Christians I know, I get these kind of looks . . . or worse . . .

Am I out in left field here?

 

[Helen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:


That's what I believe also, Helen. But then how do you handle those who will take the last part of the verses you quoted from 1 Peter 5:8-9a regarding "Your enemy" and "Resist him"? Many I know will quote these verses to "prove" that Satan attacks each of us personally.

My opinion here is that Satan is "our enemy" in the same way that Bin Laden is "our enemy". We (as a nation) are fighting against Bin Laden. In the same fashion, I see us as Christians (as a whole) fighting against Satan, and his schemes. But not personally, on a one-to-one basis.

When I bring these subjects up with Christians I know, I get these kind of looks . . . or worse . . .

Am I out in left field here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, as one of VERY few Christians in my family (the one I grew up in), I can get those looks just by walking into a room where they are telling dirty jokes! I don't even have to say anything!

Anyway, we are part of a spiritual warfare. That is evident from Ephesians 6, and the famous 'armor of God' passages. However all that armor is defensive, not offensive, except the 'sword' or the Bible itself. In other words, our response should be exactly what Jesus' was to Satan in the wilderness -- God's Word. Scripture. Now we wouldn't need armor if we were not under attack, so that part is clear. But that still does not make Satan omnipresent!

On the other hand, we don't know how many angels were created, but it was a lot. And I have a feeling a third of a lot is still a lot! And a third of the heavenly host followed Satan in his rebellion and people CAN be demon-possessed. So, in that sense, it does not matter that Satan is not omnipresent, evil almost seems to be in our world!

And our great comfort is that 'greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.'

We win. And Jesus has not lost one and we aren't scheduled to be the first! On the other hand, with the world hating us, we can figure on getting a little bruised and bloodied, at least spiritually if not physically, too!

I do have one idea/question to throw out on this whole subject, though:
I don't think the battle in the heavenlies is for our souls. I think the destiny of a person's soul is a private matter between the individual and God. But I do think that battle might be having to do with the availability of testimony and the Gospel to a hurt and dying world, and might also have to do with inflicting harm on the Christians themselves -- sometimes, perhaps, through harming those they love.

Comments?

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
1 Peter 5:8-9a says "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith."

Satan is a created being (Ezekiel 28:13-14 and Colossians 1:16) and is thus no way equal to God. One does not 'believe' in Satan, but one is wise to acknowledge his existence.

By the way, Joe Meert is an atheist and should not be posting on this board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Helen, Great to have you back.
Yes, I tend to agree with you on all points here---including the last one. The only one I can't completely justify in my mind is the roaming around, because that particular scripture was trying to explain the "evilness" or (well, this isn't coming out right--the weather here is messing with my head) but at least it is a metaphor of what Satan is like regarding his intentions. I do tend to believe he is not omnipresent, but obviously he can move through space or through the dimension of the spirit world very quickly and obviously still had (or at least had) access to God and Heaven (see Job). I also agree that as a created being he could never have the same power or capabilities as God.

One big question is, how many demons are there and (no I don't think we are all tempted by Satan himself and I'll tell you a story about that one sometime.) but, I think that demons have people they are probably assigned to watch and tempt, etc. then report back to the big bully, or at least higher ranks (who knows if they have a heirarchy of ranks they go through.

If Satan has the same physical and spiritual (in human language) characteristics of the demons then omnipresence is not one of them because of the indcident when Jesus allowed the demons to leave a man and go into swines, who then killed themselves. (I always wondered where they went then.)
This does not indicate omnipresence, but it allows for travel from inside a physical body to another which is an obvious movement in the spritual dimension -- whatever that is. Just some thoughts from some of my old studies without digging out notes, etc.

As far as believing in Satan, well a Christian should believe the Bible is God's Word and since He tells us Satan exists, we believe in him by faith the same way we believe in God. To "Meert" remember, the Bible (well, you probably haven't read yours, or don't have one--I really would give you one for Christmas if you would promise to read it cover to cover before next Christmas) the Bible says that even the demons believe in me and tremble. (or something that that effect). Referring to the fact that we must confess our sins and make the conscious decision to make Jesus our Lord and believe that He is God's doorway to eternal life.

Bad sinus headache--don't feel much like looking up verses for a professing athiest that has already obviously heard the gospel and is rejecting it blatantly.

Helen, Have a great day and God bless!

 

[Joe Meert]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
By the way, Joe Meert is an atheist and should not be posting on this board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JM: I am a Baptist. are you?

 

[Glory Bound]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:

One big question is, how many demons are there and (no I don't think we are all tempted by Satan himself and I'll tell you a story about that one sometime.) but, I think that demons have people they are probably assigned to watch and tempt, etc. then report back to the big bully, or at least higher ranks (who knows if they have a heirarchy of ranks they go through.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Phillip, this is indeed a BIG question. Because everyone I've talked to, when they admit that Satan isn't omnipresent, fall back to the large number of demons.

My follow up question then is this: I don't know of any verses where Christians are tempted by demons. I don't believe Christians can be demon-possesed: I believe once the Holy Spirit takes up residence within a Christian, there is no way a demon can live there, too.

Any ideas regarding scripture on demon temptation?

I want to thank all of you who've added your thoughts on this subject - it means a lot to me!

 

[Joe Meert]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:

To "Meert" remember, the Bible (well, you probably haven't read yours, or don't have one--I really would give you one for Christmas if you would promise to read it cover to cover before next Christmas) the Bible says that even the demons believe in me and tremble. (or something that that effect). Referring to the fact that we must confess our sins and make the conscious decision to make Jesus our Lord and believe that He is God's doorway to eternal life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JM: Let's clear some things up here. First, I was baptised in both the catholic (as a baby) and the baptist (as an adult) churches. Second, my parents were missionaries for three years in Colombia. I was raised in the church and have read the bible innumerable times throughout the course of my life (including very recently). I own several different bibles including the KJV. At present, I would classify myself as an AGNOSTIC (a slight change in attitude for me). Nevertheless, I find it interesting that Helen (or any christian) would seek to exclude anyone from participating in the discussion, or does the great commission specify individuals who are worthy of receiving testimony? Apparently, Helen has some biblical information that i should be excluded from participating in the discussion.

Cheers

Joe Meert

 

[Aaron]

I posted the line from "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" lest the idea that Satan is not omnipresent is somehow leading folks to think they can escape him without the direct intervention of God.

I wasn't trying to prove anything.

The Scriptures heretofore quoted on the nature and existence of Satan is enough to prove the point. I fear for those who think somehow they can resist Satan by their own power, when, comparatively speaking, man is as a gnat to our ancient foe.

 

[Helen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Meert:


JM: Let's clear some things up here. First, I was baptised in both the catholic (as a baby) and the baptist (as an adult) churches. Second, my parents were missionaries for three years in Colombia. I was raised in the church and have read the bible innumerable times throughout the course of my life (including very recently). I own several different bibles including the KJV. At present, I would classify myself as an AGNOSTIC (a slight change in attitude for me). Nevertheless, I find it interesting that Helen (or any christian) would seek to exclude anyone from participating in the discussion, or does the great commission specify individuals who are worthy of receiving testimony? Apparently, Helen has some biblical information that i should be excluded from participating in the discussion.

Cheers

Joe Meert<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joe, on a board several years ago you said you were an atheist. You repeated that on CARM. I believed you then and believe that now, as you have given no evidence of any change in your beliefs and life.

If you are a member of a Baptist church, that is interesting, because you don't even seem to believe in God, reading your posts. I remember when you saw nothing wrong with the occult or Ouiji boards, but thought we were ****** for warning people on that long-ago forum.

Since you have publicly proclaimed yourself an atheist, could you please now publicly recant that and give a statement of faith?

Thank you.

Helen

 

[Helen]

Just to let you folks know that Meert considers himself an atheist -- or at least did not too long ago...

31. Meert the Mocker Real Name: Joe Meert Location: Terre Haute IN Stats: Married, young Beliefs: Atheist Education:
Ph.D. Geology http://www.carm.net/boards/boardbios_i-m.htm

http://questioner.www2.50megs.com/list201.html
235 Joe Meert …….. A ….. M
[the A is for atheist and the M for male]

http://www.exmormon.org/boards/honestboard/messages/1858.html
Posted by Joe Meert on August 28, 1998 at 17:28:06:

In Reply to: Follow up to "Deceptions and Myths of the Bible" posted by Bob on August 27, 1998 at 23:56:48:

Far be it from me, the atheist, to speak badly about a
book which has reached a conclusion similar to my own.
However, who is Lloyd Graham? I sense that some of the
book is based more on opinion than fact. Some of his
arguments and evidence seemed to be right on track and
others seemed to be based on some disgust with religion
and Christianity. Personally, I find the Bible to be
a wonderful source of mythology, history and just plain
gruesome war stories. It has hatred, sex, murder, romance
and heros...all the elements of a good fictional novel.
Lloyd Graham goes through excruciating pain to try and
explain all this!

Cheers
joe meert

 

[Aaron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
Just to let you folks know that Meert considers himself an atheist -- or at least did not too long ago...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So??

His own beliefs have nothing to do with the strengths or weaknesses of his arguments, although it may shed some light on his motivations.

 

[Helen]

Aaron, this board is in the "Baptist only" area of the forum. That was the point.

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Helen:
Aaron, this board is in the "Baptist only" area of the forum. That was the point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Helen, I just got home from talking to lawyers (talk about ath.. well, let's not say that, I'm sure there are a lot of decent lawyers) but anyway I'm really tired because I'm testifying in a multimillion dollar patent infringement suite where I am the key witness (who will get nothing probably for saving two companies lives while the lawyers rake in several mil apiece and I waste time. But, that is another story. off subject here....but I read you talking about Meert and from every single post I've seen him make, he has sure not indicated he is a believer in God to me. Just my opinion and not trying to judge, BUT, James and Paul say you see them by their fruit.

I want to make my statement of faith here so there is no doubt:
I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior--that HE is God's ONLY Son Who came to earth to die for me and save me from eternal damnation by Grace alone and not works. AND, I do not deserve it. Thank you Lord.

Anyway, just had a urge to say that. Sorry, I got off track here. Have a good day.

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:

Phillip, this is indeed a BIG question. Because everyone I've talked to, when they admit that Satan isn't omnipresent, fall back to the large number of demons.

My follow up question then is this: I don't know of any verses where Christians are tempted by demons. I don't believe Christians can be demon-possesed: I believe once the Holy Spirit takes up residence within a Christian, there is no way a demon can live there, too.

Any ideas regarding scripture on demon temptation?

I want to thank all of you who've added your thoughts on this subject - it means a lot to me!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glory Bound, You have brought up an even better question. I once had a preacher who taught that a Christian could not be possessed because it would be impossible for the Holy Spirit to be in the same body as Satan. BUT, he did say that demons would attack and pester people from outside positions. Now, here is the big question. I have no idea where he got this information because he tended to throw out things he had heard and although he read the Bible a lot, he was also kind of a story teller of the "fishing story" type. So, maybe you can help or some other scholars who can give us some scripture on demonic temptation?

By the way, an interesting thought. If we are saved and we commit adultry and become one with a woman---how does the Holy Spirit who is in us handle that sort of oneness and sin---certainly by grace only.

And a final word: I probably could have answered the demon question years ago in college when a group of Christians (about three of us) decided to undertake an intense study of Satan and his demons. We were warned by our pastor that it could be risky and we had better be RIGHT with the Lord and pray hard each time. One night we were discussing our findings for the day and a presence came into the car with us. I am NOT making this up. I have NEVER IN MY LIFE FELT PURE EVIL like that before and never since. If hell is like that it would be worse than fire. I cannot describe HOW Powerful this evil was. If we didn't have Satan in person, we had one of his upper captains paying us a visit. Intense prayer began immediately and as quickly as we asked Jesus and his Father to clear out the evil, it left and the most wonderful calmess entered the car. To this day, I don't spend a lot of time studying the subject. This was not a mass hysteria, ghost story, hypnosis sort of thing, there was someone VERY EVIL in that car with us and two others were there with me and experienced the same thing at the same second. You may think I'm crazy, but the Bible says the devil is REAL. and I for one think I met either him or one of his overlords. But, Jesus took care of us. If it had not been for him I know we would have been dead, BUT then again if we weren't Christians, he might not have cared enough to look at us.

 

[S. Baptist]

Mt 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Really, Satan doesn't need to be "everywhere", he already "owns" the lost, so let them "do their thing", all he needs to worry about is "hindering the "righteous and the "almost righteous".

He has the assistance of 1/3 of the angels of Heaven, wonder how many that might be???

 

[Glory Bound]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:

He has the assistance of 1/3 of the angels of Heaven, wonder how many that might be???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This seems to be another reference to indicate that if Satan himself isn't around us to tempt us, there are always his "angels" to do his job for him. Do demons tempt Christians? I'd like to see scriptural evidence to back up this thought.