Tom, I don't know if you're referring to what I said to swaimj <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...you also will not survive in the pastorate with your present level of education (seminary in his case, rlv).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>but, if so, let me assure you (and swaimj) that this point is singular in nature - no man will survive in the pastorate if he does not continue to educate himself.
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Is seminary important?
- Thread starter FaithRemains
- Start date
rlvaughn,
I agree that a man must always be learning and growing. My point is, I found that my Bible college education was less than the minimum education that a man needs to be a pastor. Seminary has given me the tools to understand the scripture through the exegetical process and homiletical tools to be able to present it to others. Bible college introduced me to these things, but not to the degree that I could use them effectively.
I agree that a man must always be learning and growing. My point is, I found that my Bible college education was less than the minimum education that a man needs to be a pastor. Seminary has given me the tools to understand the scripture through the exegetical process and homiletical tools to be able to present it to others. Bible college introduced me to these things, but not to the degree that I could use them effectively.
And my point is that there is no time at which a person has enough education. Facts are, we must go on an serve God with whatever education we have at any particular point in time. No big disagreement, just trying to clear up the statement I made - only difference is I go on and say that seminary is also less than the minimum education a man needs to be a pastor. There is some education that you will only acquire doing it. And even though it is not in the classroom, it definitely is education.
One old tale I've heard for a number of years is about a presbytery examining a candidate for ordination and finding out that he didn't believe in a personal devil. Understandably upset, several ministers argued against ordaining him. An older wiser (wiseacre?) preacher spoke up, "Well, brethren, let's go ahead and ordain him. After he's pastored a Baptist church for six months, he'll know there is a devil!"
Yep, there's some education you can only get by being there.
One old tale I've heard for a number of years is about a presbytery examining a candidate for ordination and finding out that he didn't believe in a personal devil. Understandably upset, several ministers argued against ordaining him. An older wiser (wiseacre?) preacher spoke up, "Well, brethren, let's go ahead and ordain him. After he's pastored a Baptist church for six months, he'll know there is a devil!"
Yep, there's some education you can only get by being there. Brother Robert that was so hilarious I fell out of the pew!... ROFLOL...
I told it to my wife and daughter and they joined me in the hilarity. Who said religion is boring... Brother Glen
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
L
lidia
Guest
tyndale1946, can you tell us anything about the average educational level of your local church? What state? What do the members do for a living, etc.? It seems that this has a great deal to do with the education of their pastor, or rather what the members expect of their pastor.
Primitive Baptists elders are chosen by the individual congregations from among male members who have proven to be faithful to the church and its principles. These men are given the opportunity to speak over a trial period to determine if they have a gift to preach. This trial period typically lasts from one to five years. Those judged by the congregations to satisfy scriptural qualifications for the ministry are then ordained by a presbytery of elders.
All Primitive Baptist elders are expected to be self educated in the Word of God and are expected to seek the counsel of experienced ministers about questions of scriptural interpretation and other matters pertaining to the church. Both young and old elders are expected to seek the aid of the Holy Spirit in the furtherance of their wisdom and understanding.
This system of education is preferred above ministerial training schools because:
Elders in the New Testament were primarily self-educated in the scriptures.
Elders in the New Testament learned under the direction of the Holy Spirit and other elders rather than academicians.
The system makes the scriptures themselves to be the curriculum.
The elder learns in the same setting in which he is expected to teach. Congregations taught by these elders will be expected to have the discipline to educate themselves in the Word of God. The elder should therefore prove himself to have the same discipline.
The system is less vulnerable to the widespread propagation of error so commonly found when numerous ministers are trained under the same teachings of academicians.
I just presented this because you asked for it and agree with it wholeheartedly. I have no problem with those trained in seminaries. You won't find them in the Primitive Baptist Church unless they were trained in seminary and joined the Primitive Baptist later. This has happened in the past but is a rare among Primitive Baptist... Brother Glen
All Primitive Baptist elders are expected to be self educated in the Word of God and are expected to seek the counsel of experienced ministers about questions of scriptural interpretation and other matters pertaining to the church. Both young and old elders are expected to seek the aid of the Holy Spirit in the furtherance of their wisdom and understanding.
This system of education is preferred above ministerial training schools because:
Elders in the New Testament were primarily self-educated in the scriptures.
Elders in the New Testament learned under the direction of the Holy Spirit and other elders rather than academicians.
The system makes the scriptures themselves to be the curriculum.
The elder learns in the same setting in which he is expected to teach. Congregations taught by these elders will be expected to have the discipline to educate themselves in the Word of God. The elder should therefore prove himself to have the same discipline.
The system is less vulnerable to the widespread propagation of error so commonly found when numerous ministers are trained under the same teachings of academicians.
I just presented this because you asked for it and agree with it wholeheartedly. I have no problem with those trained in seminaries. You won't find them in the Primitive Baptist Church unless they were trained in seminary and joined the Primitive Baptist later. This has happened in the past but is a rare among Primitive Baptist... Brother Glen
And who taught these elders in the NT churches around the Mediterranean?<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Paul of Tarsus, Ph.D. from the most prestigious academic program in the world<LI>Barnabas of Alexandria, Ph.D. from the second leading "seminary" of his day.<LI>Apoloos of Alexandria, Ph.D. who, after he was straightened out on Baptism, became a teacher of these elders<LI>Aquila of Pontus, Ph.D. from Rome[/list]These men went together, then separately and established churches and taught. They had the highest education possible of their day and God used it mightily.
I've often heard that water cannot rise higher than its source. If my only teacher was my pastor, I could not be any smarter than he. Nor could a student of mine then be more versed than I.
And the downward spiral continues. Just found out that my seminary no longer requires Hebrew for the M.Div. program. Man, I had to have 2 years of Hebrew for an M.A. back in another dispensation . . .
I've often heard that water cannot rise higher than its source. If my only teacher was my pastor, I could not be any smarter than he. Nor could a student of mine then be more versed than I.
And the downward spiral continues. Just found out that my seminary no longer requires Hebrew for the M.Div. program. Man, I had to have 2 years of Hebrew for an M.A. back in another dispensation . . .
I think the reason is declining enrollment. They drop it because it is a lot easier to get students to enroll if they don't have to take Hebrew. Thus it is easier to get their money and to have a bigger school. Lest you think I am cynical, I made this very same decision in my MA though I later took Hebrew in my MDiv. I chose an MA program that didn't have Hebrew because I was too lazy to take it. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the guys I was in school with who did the same thing. I think many become more interested in passing out degrees than they do in educating pastors with the necessary tools to do the job.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
If my only teacher was my pastor, I could not be any smarter than he. Nor could a student of mine then be more versed than I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Brother, this is based on an assumption about teaching that is not true (or at least does not have to be), and can be proven incorrect by experience. Lots of students in many fields have surpassed their teachers. The purpose of teaching should not be just to impart what you know, but to give the student tools by which they begin and continue a lifelong process of learning.
If my only teacher was my pastor, I could not be any smarter than he. Nor could a student of mine then be more versed than I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Brother, this is based on an assumption about teaching that is not true (or at least does not have to be), and can be proven incorrect by experience. Lots of students in many fields have surpassed their teachers. The purpose of teaching should not be just to impart what you know, but to give the student tools by which they begin and continue a lifelong process of learning.
I was hoping someone would see both the logic of my statement AND its fallacy. While a person might only have one "teacher" per se, that does not stop reading from 1000's of great men, learning and growing in grace through "secondary" education.
And some, like Luther, are simply enlightened on a part of the Word that has been by-passed in education. We calvinists are big on the idea that God works internally within our hearts, spirit and mind.
Unfortunately, some put a KJV under their pillow at night and become "knowledgeable" by osmosis!
And some, like Luther, are simply enlightened on a part of the Word that has been by-passed in education. We calvinists are big on the idea that God works internally within our hearts, spirit and mind.
Unfortunately, some put a KJV under their pillow at night and become "knowledgeable" by osmosis!
I feel that the character qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3 are very important. What good is it to have a pastor with an earned doctorate in religion from an Ivy League school--but who is not faithful to his family and gets drunk in public?!? Then again, when Paul writes "study to show thyself approved"--doesn't that make the minister obliged to prepare for the task of shepherding God's people?
Houstonian
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joshua2415:
I have been a preacher for over two years and have never formally been to seminary. I am in no way opposed to going, if the Lord lead me there. I only asked the question to get other opinions.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One suggestion, only go to seminary if you are really interested in learning. Remember learning means change. If you are intent upon not changing any viewpoint you currently hold, don't waste your time and time of the professors.
I have been a preacher for over two years and have never formally been to seminary. I am in no way opposed to going, if the Lord lead me there. I only asked the question to get other opinions.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One suggestion, only go to seminary if you are really interested in learning. Remember learning means change. If you are intent upon not changing any viewpoint you currently hold, don't waste your time and time of the professors.
C
changed_like_saul
Guest
I'm sorry I missed this thread until now!!!!
Seminaries? Hhhmmm!!
Is it better to have one man teaching thirty students a subject or is it better to have one student being taught by thirty teachers?
I'm sorry if I hurt someone feelings and this will not be popular. Seminaries are the exact reason why we have so many false doctrines in the world today. A false interpritation of scripture has spread for many years to the point it is accepted as the general rule of God. Seminaries reveal God and Christ as being weak and unsure. In doing this man is lifted up. God's people have been brain washed into believeing this garbage. Satan is alive and well. Seminaries, for the most part, teach man has a choice in his salvation. Brethren, I know I'm going to get hit from everyside with this, God is not weak and unsure and my Savior Jesus Christ accomplished the work God sent him to do....save His people from their sins, Matt 1:21. Seminaries train men and women (and that I have a problem with) "the 4 step program" to salvation.
1) Man is a sinner and there is nothing he can do about it.
2) God has done all He can do.
3) If man will accept Christ.
4) God will save him.
Read this over serveral times and pray about. Then read the rest of my post.
a
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# 3 contradicts #1....man is a sinner, he has not the ability to do anything good. Accepting Chirst is a good thing, right?
#4 contradicts # 2....God has done all He can do. If God has done all He can do in #2, then if God can do more, then statement 2 is a lie.
These are the things that come out of the seminaries.
wisdom can be found in a multitude of coucilors.
Changed like Saul,
Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org
[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
Seminaries? Hhhmmm!!
Is it better to have one man teaching thirty students a subject or is it better to have one student being taught by thirty teachers?
I'm sorry if I hurt someone feelings and this will not be popular. Seminaries are the exact reason why we have so many false doctrines in the world today. A false interpritation of scripture has spread for many years to the point it is accepted as the general rule of God. Seminaries reveal God and Christ as being weak and unsure. In doing this man is lifted up. God's people have been brain washed into believeing this garbage. Satan is alive and well. Seminaries, for the most part, teach man has a choice in his salvation. Brethren, I know I'm going to get hit from everyside with this, God is not weak and unsure and my Savior Jesus Christ accomplished the work God sent him to do....save His people from their sins, Matt 1:21. Seminaries train men and women (and that I have a problem with) "the 4 step program" to salvation.
1) Man is a sinner and there is nothing he can do about it.
2) God has done all He can do.
3) If man will accept Christ.
4) God will save him.
Read this over serveral times and pray about. Then read the rest of my post.
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
# 3 contradicts #1....man is a sinner, he has not the ability to do anything good. Accepting Chirst is a good thing, right?
#4 contradicts # 2....God has done all He can do. If God has done all He can do in #2, then if God can do more, then statement 2 is a lie.
These are the things that come out of the seminaries.
wisdom can be found in a multitude of coucilors.
Changed like Saul,
Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org
[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
We calvinists are big on the idea that God works internally within our hearts, spirit and mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dr. Bob, this is an important point, though somewhat outside the seminary discussion. But the internal work of God in our hearts, spirits, and minds is an imperative factor of religious education that is not present in the same sense in any other form of education.
We calvinists are big on the idea that God works internally within our hearts, spirit and mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dr. Bob, this is an important point, though somewhat outside the seminary discussion. But the internal work of God in our hearts, spirits, and minds is an imperative factor of religious education that is not present in the same sense in any other form of education.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:
These are the things that come out of the seminaries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this is what you were taught in seminary then you need a new seminary. If this is what your group fo churches is teaching in their seminaries then you need a new group of churches.
These are the things that come out of the seminaries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this is what you were taught in seminary then you need a new seminary. If this is what your group fo churches is teaching in their seminaries then you need a new group of churches.
M
Mark Twain
Guest
Seems as if the Primitive Baptists don't cotton much to education!
C
changed_like_saul
Guest
Wrong again oh one touched by God.
Education is very very important to Primitive Baptist. In fact, we believe, an Elder or not, a child of God should never stop studying God's word.
We do not believe in seminaries, period!! We believe each man whom God has called should study God's word AND seek out other Elders with questions they have about scripture. This way the "student" has more than one "teacher" on every subject.
Consider this, there is one "teacher" and thirty students. The teacher has one error in his teaching. That single error of doctrine will be taught to thirty students. Suppose each student becomes an instructor at a seminary and teaches for thirty years and has only thirty students a year, beginning to see what happens? Sooner than later the erro becomes the standard, which is false doctrine. False doctrine is what Paul warned Timothy about. That is why, we, Primitive Baptist do not use nor like seminaries. Old Baptist take advantage of the way scripture says teach...using a multitude of counsilors.
Check out this link: www.pb.org/pbdocs/blakrock.html This is called the Black Rock Address a position taken many years ago. I'm sure many of you may have read this...I dought anyone read it in a seminary. This covers the reason of the Baptist split that occured around the 1800s.
Changed like Saul,
Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org
Education is very very important to Primitive Baptist. In fact, we believe, an Elder or not, a child of God should never stop studying God's word.
We do not believe in seminaries, period!! We believe each man whom God has called should study God's word AND seek out other Elders with questions they have about scripture. This way the "student" has more than one "teacher" on every subject.
Consider this, there is one "teacher" and thirty students. The teacher has one error in his teaching. That single error of doctrine will be taught to thirty students. Suppose each student becomes an instructor at a seminary and teaches for thirty years and has only thirty students a year, beginning to see what happens? Sooner than later the erro becomes the standard, which is false doctrine. False doctrine is what Paul warned Timothy about. That is why, we, Primitive Baptist do not use nor like seminaries. Old Baptist take advantage of the way scripture says teach...using a multitude of counsilors.
Check out this link: www.pb.org/pbdocs/blakrock.html This is called the Black Rock Address a position taken many years ago. I'm sure many of you may have read this...I dought anyone read it in a seminary. This covers the reason of the Baptist split that occured around the 1800s.
Changed like Saul,
Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Seminaries are the exact reason why we have so many false doctrines in the world today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you explain the fact that false doctrine predates the existence of seminaries?
You said seminaries teach a weak Christ. Granted, some liberal ones might. But there are plenty of good ones that teach Biblical doctrine.
How do you explain the fact that false doctrine predates the existence of seminaries?
You said seminaries teach a weak Christ. Granted, some liberal ones might. But there are plenty of good ones that teach Biblical doctrine.