Is Spiritual Death a Biblical Concept? Part 2

[Charlie24]

That was just the surface in a glance, when you really get into it, which would take unlimited space on these boards, you will really be shocked.

The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed to man, this is what Paul was trying to drive in their heads.

The New Testament explains all of what the OT Law represented in Christ.

The Jews Paul was speaking to were lacking this knowledge and falling away!

The Hebrews Paul was addressing knew the Law very well, but they couldn't see Christ in the Law as they needed to.

Paul was urging them on to read the New Testament Scripture that was being written at that time for them to see Christ as related in the Law.

 

[JonC]

IF you hold to able to lose salvation, which I do not, the answer by this very passage has to be no

The thing is, we should not read Scripture in accordance to what we hold. This is the problem I have been shouting about for decades on this board.

You start with what you hold and then fit God into that mold.
Instead read Scripture for what it says and deal with the result.
That said, I agree that salvation cannot be lost.

But this passage does not support eternal security.

If applicable to a born of the Spirit believer then salvation can be lost.
If ditected to not quite there Jews then the question of eternal security is not being addressed.


So you are wrong to say "the answer by this very passage has to be no".


Slow down. Read your Bible. Think about it. Pray about what you have read. Then post. If the thread closes before then then start another.

 

[37818]

That is quite a bit of bouncing around the Scripture, and not in context to this particular passage.

You have to remember Paul is speaking to the Jews of turning back from Christ to the Law.

"Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God."

He is telling them to let go of the works of the Law, and the faith in that system now that Christ has fulfilled the Law in it's entirety.

"Of the doctrines of baptisms," is referring to the many "washings" of purifications in the Law of Moses. This is where baptism originated, from the washings that no longer are to be observed with John the Baptist coming to show the purpose of the washings in the OT Scripture.

"And the laying on of hands," this is referring again to the Law of Moses, the laying on of hands in the sacrificial system. When an animal was sacrificed for sin, the person who brought the animal was to lay his hands on the head of the animal to be slain as the sign of the persons sin being transferred to the animal. This represents Christ dying on the Cross for our sins.

"The resurrection of the dead," is once again referring the prophets of the OT speaking on the resurrection of the dead but totally incomplete, Isaiah, Hosea, Daniel, all spoke of the future resurrection that represented Christ.

"And of eternal judgment," again referring the OT view of the judgement of God. But is explained in the NT, if you move on to it.

Vs 3, "And this we will do if God permit," refers to moving on to the NT where all of the Law is explained in Christ.

Then in vs 5, Paul begins to explain what will happen if they don't keep moving forward to the NT, they will begin to fall away, stuck in the first principles of the OT and not understanding.

1) . . . principles of the doctrine of Christ, . . .
2) . . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, . . .
"You have to remember Paul is speaking to the Jews of turning back from Christ to the Law."
I do. Hebrews 9:14.
We can add, Romans 3:19-20.
James 2:10.
Galatians 2:21.
Deuteronomy 26:27.

 

[JonC]

1) . . . principles of the doctrine of Christ, . . .
2) . . . the foundation of repentance from dead works, . . .
"You have to remember Paul is speaking to the Jews of turning back from Christ to the Law."
I do. Hebrews 9:14.
We can add, Romans 3:19-20.
James 2:10.
Galatians 2:21.
Deuteronomy 26:27.

I take it the "foundation of repentance from dead works" refers to genuinely turning from dead works and believing in God.

What do you mean by the "principles of the doctrine of Christ"?

(I know what I believe to be the principles of Jesus' teachings, but Im not sure what others may mean).

 

[JonC]

Continued from

https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/is-spiritual-death-a-biblical-concept-then.131534/page-7

 

[37818]

What do you mean by the "principles of the doctrine of Christ"?

The beginning of the teaching of Christ, meaning of Him being the Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4, . . .bhow that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .

1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . .

 

[Charlie24]

The beginning of the teaching of Christ, meaning of Him being the Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4, . . .bhow that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .

1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . .

Paul was given the revelation of Christ from Christ Himself.

When Paul said, "according to the Scriptures," he was speaking of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ from the OT Scripture that Christ revealed to him.

The NT Scripture was not completed and was being written at the time Paul said this.

 

[JesusFan]

The Hebrews Paul was addressing knew the Law very well, but they couldn't see Christ in the Law as they needed to.

Paul was urging them on to read the New Testament Scripture that was being written at that time for them to see Christ as related in the Law.

The author, probably not Paul, was pointing out to those Hebrews that they needed to make sure that they were really saved in claiming and professing to be, for when their trials and tribulations hit them, those merely professing Jesus as the Messiah went back to Judaism and the temple, showing that they were never really saved and one of Jesus flock.

 

[JesusFan]

The thing is, we should not read Scripture in accordance to what we hold. This is the problem I have been shouting about for decades on this board.

You start with what you hold and then fit God into that mold.
Instead read Scripture for what it says and deal with the result.
That said, I agree that salvation cannot be lost.

But this passage does not support eternal security.

If applicable to a born of the Spirit believer then salvation can be lost.
If ditected to not quite there Jews then the question of eternal security is not being addressed.


So you are wrong to say "the answer by this very passage has to be no".


Slow down. Read your Bible. Think about it. Pray about what you have read. Then post. If the thread closes before then then start another.

Author addresses this issue, as He also stated to us very sure that they would be among the saved

 

[JesusFan]

Paul was given the revelation of Christ from Christ Himself.

When Paul said, "according to the Scriptures," he was speaking of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ from the OT Scripture that Christ revealed to him.

The NT Scripture was not completed and was being written at the time Paul said this.

yet Paul also recorded down passages that would have both Luke and Isaiah seen as being inspired scriptures, and Peter affirmed Paul was giving inspired scriptures

 

[JesusFan]

The thing is, we should not read Scripture in accordance to what we hold. This is the problem I have been shouting about for decades on this board.

You start with what you hold and then fit God into that mold.
Instead read Scripture for what it says and deal with the result.
That said, I agree that salvation cannot be lost.

But this passage does not support eternal security.

If applicable to a born of the Spirit believer then salvation can be lost.
If ditected to not quite there Jews then the question of eternal security is not being addressed.


So you are wrong to say "the answer by this very passage has to be no".


Slow down. Read your Bible. Think about it. Pray about what you have read. Then post. If the thread closes before then then start another.

Since we are discussing spiritual death still on this link, what exactly died in Adam and Eve the very day sinned against God?

 

[Charlie24]

The author, probably not Paul, was pointing out to those Hebrews that they needed to make sure that they were really saved in claiming and professing to be, for when their trials and tribulations hit them, those merely professing Jesus as the Messiah went back to Judaism and the temple, showing that they were never really saved and one of Jesus flock.

Oh, sure! Paul addresses them as, "Holy Brethren, partakers of the Divine Calling," they couldn't be saved, right?

 

[JonC]

Oh, sure! Paul addresses them as, "Holy Brethren, partakers of the Divine Calling," they couldn't be saved, right?

We pretty much address our congregations as of they are saved. At the same time most of us realize the entire congregation is probably not saved. We know this from the many who will hear "I never knew you".

 

[JesusFan]

Oh, sure! Paul addresses them as, "Holy Brethren, partakers of the Divine Calling," they couldn't be saved, right?

As John stated, they were among us, but when they departed showed were never one of us

 

[Charlie24]

As John stated, they were among us, but when they departed showed were never one of us

That does not connect to the Scripture we are discussing.

You're bringing up a completely different situation, and trying to tie it in.

 

[JesusFan]

That does not connect to the Scripture we are discussing.

You're bringing up a completely different situation, and trying to tie it in.

same concept involved, as Hebrews was addressing an entire assembly, and whil all might profess were saved, trials and troubles proved some were not when they "departed the faith"