Is Spiritual Formation For You?

Re your first point: I think taking theological concepts from medieval Catholicism is dangerous.

2nd point: The concept of the Trinity is from the Bible, not from Catholics, and commemorating the Lord's supper was done in the early church -- Corinthians refers to it. I think the word Trinity was used before the Catholics came along, as far as I know. The concepts of both of these are biblical and were a part of early Christian belief/practice. We didn't need the Catholic Church for these.

 

You may be right. It would help if you could tell me which mp3 file (1st or 2nd) and a rough time on that file (1st qtr, ... 4th qtr) so I don't have to listen to the whole thing if you want a response soon. I don't have much time to sit and listen to the whole two files right now.

Thanks.

 

I disagree. There are many excellent concepts from medieval Catholicism like the teachings of Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and a host of other great Catholics. Some are not so good of course which is why I'm not a Catholic. (note: Aquinas probably shouldn't be called medieval since he was probably one of the largest forces for bringing Catholicism out of the medieval era)

The term Trinity and Communion are not from the Bible just as the term Spiritual Formation is not from the bible.

The concepts of the Trinity and Communion are from the Bible just as the concept of developing a strong spiritual life as that sought by Spiritual Formation programs is found in the bible.

 

The concept of a youth pastor is not unbiblical - he's a shepherd or elder and that comes from the Bible. A Spiritual Director is not a pastor or elder or deacon yet has spiritual oversight.

How you see spiritual directors is not the issue, Gold Dragon. They are imbued with spiritual responsibility and special "insight" they may not have. You are giving your spiritual growth over to them.

Here is CT's version of it:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/117/51.0.html

This is more than a mentor. I really don't see the need for someone to help me hear the HS.

The article goes on to give the background - how it came from the monastic movement but its modern roots are with St. Ignatius of Loyola.

This to me is just a part of a bigger problem that I and others are seeing: the blurring of lines between Catholicism and the Reformation. It is as if the Reformation didn't happen. Recently, some evangelical leaders have said things along the lines of how we should forget the differences (with Catholics) and unite with them on certain things. I am not one of those rabid anti-Catholics at all - I don't agree with Dave Hunt's view, for instance, or other extreme views. However, this does bother me.

There are big doctrinal differences between Roman Catholicism and evangelical Christianity, and we should not ignore the differences at all.

 

But whatever the value of Augustine's writings are, we determine by the Bible, not the Catholic Church. We don't think Augustine is good because he's Catholic. That has nothing to do with any value his teachings may have.

But we're not talking about terms, but concepts.

Developing a strong spiritual life - how could I be against that? It's how to do it that we're discussing.

You keep writing as though I'm against the terms - terms are usually irrelevant to me unless they are confusing or misleading. I'm concerned with concepts and practices.

 

I agree. I never said a youth pastor is unbiblical. Just that it is a position not found in the bible.

Agreed. A spiritual director is not a pastor or elder or deacon and has spiritual oversight. I am none of the above and I have spiritual oversight (in terms of caring for and being responsible for) the spiritual growth of the small groups I lead and those I mentor.

Ignatius of Loyola was definitely a cool guy with a lot of great ideas. I consider him to be one of the great Catholic reformers, reforming the Catholic church from within.

I agree we should not ignore the differences between RC and evangelical Christianity. And the reformation definitely happened and for some good and some not so good reasons. Many of the problems of the reformation have been addressed in the 500 years since. Yes the Catholic church like any large institution is slow to change but change it has.

I am supportive of Catholic and protestant dialogue and have enjoyed several masses as an outsider.

 

I agree Augustine's "goodness" is not because he was a Catholic. But he was a Catholic and I will not ignore his "goodness" or the "goodness" of anything simply because it is Catholic.

It was you that initially brought up that the term Spiritual Formation is not found in the bible but was a Catholic term. My discussion on terms was in response to that.

Agreed. Then don't bring up the origin of a term or that it is not found in the bible. Let us address the concepts of Spiritual Formation and not the term.

 

Some concepts of Spiritual Formation

Small groups, prayer, fellowship ministry. Growing together in character and in friendships. I'd say those are some pretty biblical concepts.

I'll see what others have to say.

 

Having attended many evangelistic meetings (billy graham, navigators, local church) and being involved in the followup programs of some of them, I would agree with Brian McLaren. Followup has traditionally been very thin and poorly approached but primarily with those four focuses. It is then the congregations responsibility to disciple the new believer which it often dropped the ball in as well.

 

Having been involved in many evangelical evangelistic meetings (billy graham, navigators, local church, etc) and involved in the follow-up program for some, I would agree with Brian's characterization of follow-up and its focus. Often it was expected that the local congregations would do the heavy lifting of discipleship and they often dropped the ball on that.

 

I find it interesting that the word contemplative is mentioned once in the article and not with the word prayer and you seem to feel the need to mention two of your criticsms about Brian's view of Spiritual Formation to be about contemplative prayer.

 

Brian never says anything about setting aside biblical standards.

His mention of modern technologies and information is about how our discipleship paradigms need to change to be able to handle the onslaught of information that comes at us. The traditional paradigm being that one is discipled by going to church and hearing a sermon for an hour on sunday and have information passed to them. The newer paradigm being one that creates Christians who can think critically and I would add biblically and handle the onslaught of information coming at them on a minute to minute basis.

 

Listened to the first few minutes of the mp3. He definitely believes that the traditional view of hell is incorrect. But he doesn't deny a biblical hell. He just believes that the traditional view of hell is not biblical. Nothing different from my quotes from him above.