Is the AV1611 written at a 4th grade Level?

[Forever settled in heaven]

Originally posted by rsr:
Dr. Bob, I think the "fourth grade level" you referred is based on the Flesch index, which determines readability by a mathematical formula: Count the number of words, syllables and sentences and plug the numbers into the formula.

i have to agree. this whole KJB readability thing came about w the misuse of the Flesch-Kincaid index. an example of this is found in the notes of the so-called Defined KJB:

http://www.post1.com/home/amarillo/revDKJB.htm

 

[Refreshed]

Just a note to point out an absurdity that everybody is probably aware of. Using the Flesch scale is accurate if all the words in the test case are "language-wide" without local phrases or obsolete words and does not accurately test between long periods of time because of the morphology of language. Canterbury Tales would probably score very low in the Flesch scale (I haven't read it in awhile, so I can't be emphatic about it), but readability would be low and comprehension would be extremely low. I always think of the words "milch kine" from the Old Testament in the KJV. Two syllables with very few letters, but incomprehensible to most people.

Jason

 

[Forever settled in heaven]

Originally posted by Refreshed:
Just a note to point out an absurdity that everybody is probably aware of. Using the Flesch scale is accurate if all the words in the test case are "language-wide" without local phrases or obsolete words and does not accurately test between long periods of time because of the morphology of language.

that's right. i haven't got the software w me (AFTERNOTE: found it at http://www.aellalei.com/resources/sample.html#flesch), but i think it wld be fun to run Jabberwocky thru it sometime, or some passage w short sentences fr a low-syllable language, maybe Pinyin Chinese!

take, for instance, the following paragraph:

"wode ming shi huang wenzhong. nihao, jintian tianqi buchuo. women chu qu you wan ba!"

i know many readers will feel blessed immediately, but i have to intrude--wld u believe it, this reads even EASIER for comprehension than the KJB1611--based on the Flesch-Kincaid!

if the KJB is Grade 4 level, the paragraph above is Grade 0.71999999.

or more pertinently, the following Bible passage:

'A ženi reče: "Trudnoći tvojoj muke ću umnožit, u mukama djecu ćeš rađati. Žudnja će te mužu tjerati, a on će gospodariti nad tobom."'

this Croatian Gen. 3:16 rates 3.708 on the same scale, again, beneath the reading level of the KJB.

i wonder what they wld think of next, those who argue for the KJB's readability on the basis of the Flesch-Kincaid formula despite the version's obvious archaicness of vocab n grammar.

P.S.--ah, more time for Jabberwocky--it rates 4.60138678935261 for Grade level, brillig duh!

[ April 28, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Forever settled in heaven ]

 

[KPBAP]

...and remember that the KJV 1611 has been revised numerous times since 1611.

 

[Johnv]

I am also just curious about "grade level" reading. Is there is a national standard?

Since it's the KJVO crowd that argues that the KJV is written at the 4th grade reading level, let THEM answer that question, and then apply other versions to that same standard.

It seems to me that the question of reading level only comes up when that statement is disputed, but the statement has yet to be supported.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

John, I was the one who said it...and I don't think it was for any of those reasons you just suggested...and I did explain why I said it on this thread.

Laurenda

 

[Lace]

quote:

It is NOT illegal to carry a bible into a public school. It IS illegal for a representative of the government (e.g. a teacher) to proselytize the children in his or her tutlage in a public school. This is only fair...if the Bible can be taught, so could an Islamic teacher teach the Koran, a Satanist teach from the writings of Anton LeVay, etc. This protection leaves religious teaching where it belongs...in the hands of the parents of the children.

~~~~~~~~~~~

It is this very belief that has given Humanism a stronghold in the public schools.......

Taking God out of public education left the door wide open for Satan and deception. AND he moved right in and with the help of the ACLU and apathetic parents, made himself at home. To make this statement believeable....visit the average high school in America. Though the humanistic programing starts long before high school....high school leaves no question to the outcome.

It's time for people to wake up!

****sorry....another rabbit was turned loose.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Wisdom Seeker:
John, I was the one who said it...and I don't think it was for any of those reasons you just suggested...and I did explain why I said it on this thread.

Laurenda

Oh dear, forgive me. I wasn't implying that you're a KJVOist. Just that we seem to hear that a lot from the KJVO crowd.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I am also just curious about "grade level" reading. Is there is a national standard?

Since it's the KJVO crowd that argues that the KJV is written at the 4th grade reading level, let THEM answer that question...

John, I raised this question, and I believe it is valid regardless of which "version" position one takes. My curiousity is even outside the "versions" issue. I am curious who decides - is there a national standard? do state entities come up with the grade level (and thus it varies from state to state)? I don't care who answers the question - KJV, NoJV, VJK, MV, VM, XYZ, or whoever! Just so they can answer and give a valid source.

 

[TomVols]

Last I read, KJV was at a 12 grade level.

 

[RaptureReady]

Well, my little girl is 7, second grade, and she read the King James Bible. Obviously she needs help with the big words, sometimes I do to. I believe that when she is in the 4th or 5th grade that reading the King James Bible will be like reading the TV guide(which some of us are masters at).

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

John, nothing to forgive. I laughed when I read what you said, because I thought..."Ouch, I have never had John, one of my best buddies, get mad at me before...oh dear."

Lace, God is not out of the Christian School. If a parent wants Jesus Christ taught in school, they have every right to put them in a Christian school or home school But in this country...there is more than one religion. If you expect God to be taught to children in the public school system, they will be taught about Satanism, Mormonism, Catholisism, Judeaism, Muslim, Buddhism, you name it...that's what they will get. Do you want that? I know I don't.

My school age kids bring their Bibles to school, and pray over their meals in school. There are even Bible clubs and prayer groups in school. These are not unusual.

I understand where you are coming from, really I do. But we don't live in a country, say like Sweden for example where the country has 98% of the populas is the same religion.

Please don't blast me okay? Thanks.

 

[MEdde]

Hello I thought I would fill everyone in, seeing how nobody knows this or hasn't posted it yet. The AV is actually written on a 5th grade reading level as a whole. But low points are 3rd grade starting in Genesis all the way up to Post Graduate (College) in Revelations. God builds your vocabulary with the KJV.

Microsoft Word has the Built in Fleich-Kinkaid Grade Level indicator that the American Public school system uses to grade this. This is what was used to show what the KJV was written on as well as the others. Zondervan Publishing as well as other sites...one I believe was linked here...shows the KJV on a 12th or higher. This is false advertising according to the American school system.

They use number of words per sentence, with the number of syllables per word as well as ease of reading to come up with this, and a mathmatical equation.

What you find in reading the KJV is that God used all the 1, 2, 3, & 4 syllable words in writing the KJV, so when someone wants to write their own Bible for "Money" they have to use words with a lot more syllables and makes them extremely hard to read. Otherwise they can't get a copyright. The KJV also uses what is called word building blocks especially for children.

A good example for the syllables is...
Leviticus 14:57 To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.(KJV)

Leviticus 14:57 To determine when something is clean or unclean. These are the regulations for infectious skin diseases and mildew. (NIV)

Which one is easier to read??

Above all that...Who can't read 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 in a KJV.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Any man that tells me he has to use a New bible to get the gospel out is dishonest. Paul says that this is the Gospel according to verse 1 of this chapter.

Not too mention I saw that someone used a Living Bible. The one I have uses S.O.B. in the text. I wouldn't want any child reading the Living piece of trash. They would have a potty mouth.

Truth

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by MEdde:
Microsoft Word has the Built in Fleich-Kinkaid Grade Level indicator that the American Public school system uses to grade this...

Could you explain how this can be used in Microsoft Word? In other words, can I type in a document in Microsoft Word and then test it with the Fleich-Kinkaid indicator?

 

[MEdde]

I also wanted to point out that it is absurd to use the excuse that even though the KJV uses all the words with a small amount of syllables that it is still hard to read because of "archaic words", seeing how the NIV, LIV, & all other New Versions use words that are not only archaic but also words that are too advanced for 80% of our 12th graders in Public Schools today.

You not only have the KJV using those small syllable words but God seems to repeat himself in verses because he gives the "DEFINITION" in the text to almost all words. Especially those of first occurance.

Like the word "Adamant" Look at the definition: A very hard or impenetrable stone; a name given to the diamond and other substances of extreme hardness.

Now look at the first two verses in the KJV with the word adamant there.
Ezekiel 3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

God gave you the definition in the text as He does most all the words.

Now of course there is always the fact that God says He wants you to study and that He teaches you a little at a time (2 Tim. 2:15 / Isa 28:9-10) But if you want to take a short cut from what God says you can use a New Version but it isn't God's word.

Another wonderful thing about the KJV is that a lot of the words originated in Spanish, French, German, & Latin. Thus the KJV is easier for a "Foriegner" to read than any other English Translation.

Truth

 

[MEdde]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEdde:
Microsoft Word has the Built in Fleich-Kinkaid Grade Level indicator that the American Public school system uses to grade this...

Could you explain how this can be used in Microsoft Word? In other words, can I type in a document in Microsoft Word and then test it with the Fleich-Kinkaid indicator? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. What you have to do is go to the options...I believe this is the tab up at the top of Microsoft Word, where you can set up options in the Spelling/Grammer settings. There will be a check box that is not checked by default. It says to grade the text. You check it and the next time you write or type or paste a verse into a document, go to check spelling and at the end of the spell check it will grade it for you. A box will appear giving the Readability Statistics.

If you can't figure it out, go to the help in Microsoft Word and type in Flesch-Kincaid and a box should come up telling you how to activate it. The box will tell you the formula that the system uses as well as the fact that it is what America Uses to grade its students.

God Bless, Truth

 

[MEdde]

I almost forgot...Sometimes putting in or taking out the Chapter and verse numbers can hurt or help the redability. The program doesn't understand numbering the verses sometimes.

For what it is worth, after plugging in the 1st Chapter of Matthew the KJV said it was on the 6th grade while the NIV was on the 16th!!!! grade.

 

[MEdde]

Originally posted by russell55:
Here is a page that gives reading levels of various English versions of the Bible: Comparison of versions .

If you disagree with what the page says....I'm just the messenger. Please don't shoot me!

This is the same chart used by Zondervan. Of course we all know this is great for those making a buck off of their books. Anyway the point is I wrote Zondervan to find out what they used as a standard for their chart. I never got a reply.

I then took the verse Zondervan uses in the Minor Prophets "of course" and plugged it into Microsoft Word with the KJV first. The verse they said was on a 12th was actually 2nd or 3rd. The NIV was up to 4th or 6th on that particular verse. It has been about a year or two since I did it so I don't remember the exact. Just that the CHart is a Big Fat Lie.

NEWS FLASH... I just visited Zondervans site and they took the Verse off of their website that was there when I last visited and put up a verse in 1 Corinthians.

I wonder if that was because they got bombarded with emails about the false advertisment and found a verse that would read a little higher?? LOL this is all too funny. Rupert Murdock and his Bart Simpson bible will do anything to make a buck.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by MEdde:
Not too mention I saw that someone used a Living Bible. The one I have uses S.O.B. in the text. I wouldn't want any child reading the Living piece of trash. They would have a potty mouth.

Truth

I liked your post, I was reading it, learning things I hadn't heard explained so well before....until I got to this part. I am who you are speaking of. And may I say...Ouch! I don't have, nor have I ever had a potty mouth. I can appreciate you voicing a negative opinion towards what you believe to be bad...but do you have to attack a PERSON. Please don't say the truth hurts...it doesn't if it's spoken in love like the Bible says.

Furthermore, I read the Living Bible cover to cover when I was 12 years old, I couldn't put it down...I tried to read the KJV when I was newly saved, and like I said before the language quenched my spirit, so my grandma gave me the Living Bible to start with, and I read the entire thing in 3 months.

What has happened to the B.B.? It didn't use to be this bad? It used to be that a lady was treated like a lady everywhere on this board, I've been personally attacked about 6 times in the last 2 days, and I must say that I don't understand why people seem to be so hostile lately. Can't a subject be discussed objectively without the mud slinging?

In Christ,
Laurenda Winkler
Mother of 7
Saved in 1974 at the age of 12.

 

[Johnv]

Hello I thought I would fill everyone in, seeing how nobody knows this or hasn't posted it yet. The AV is actually written on a 5th grade reading level as a whole. But low points are 3rd grade starting in Genesis all the way up to Post Graduate (College) in Revelations. God builds your vocabulary with the KJV.

It stands to reason that this would be true of all faithful translations, since they are simply converting the words of the Bible into English.