xdisciplex
New Member
I always thought that Romans 7 describes a carnal christian. But now I saw that a lot of christians think that this is a wrong doctrine. 
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Is the carnal christian a heresy? Or does he exist?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
I don't think Romans 7 describes a carnal christian. I think it describes the two natures warring against each other. (Carnal and spiritual)
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What he is saying here is that he, as a man, is carnal, but, he also continues from here talking about the spiritual side of him that does not agree with the carnal nature. I guess, in that sense, you could say we are all partly "carnal christians". But we need to try our best walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
What he is saying here is that he, as a man, is carnal, but, he also continues from here talking about the spiritual side of him that does not agree with the carnal nature. I guess, in that sense, you could say we are all partly "carnal christians". But we need to try our best walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
xdisciplex
New Member
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But this sounds pretty much like a christian.
But this sounds pretty much like a christian.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/
A carnal Christian is walking out of fellowship with God. He is following after his own mind, will, and emotions, rather than the Mind of Christ (the Spiritual insight and understanding of Christ) that was imparted to him at the moment of salvation. He is failing to exercise his God-given ability to walk with Jesus, rather than pursue the things of the flesh. Do some cross-referencing in various translations when you encounter something like this. In fact, this may be the only commentary you need, along with a study Bible. I can recommend a study Bible if you request it.
A carnal Christian is walking out of fellowship with God. He is following after his own mind, will, and emotions, rather than the Mind of Christ (the Spiritual insight and understanding of Christ) that was imparted to him at the moment of salvation. He is failing to exercise his God-given ability to walk with Jesus, rather than pursue the things of the flesh. Do some cross-referencing in various translations when you encounter something like this. In fact, this may be the only commentary you need, along with a study Bible. I can recommend a study Bible if you request it.
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xdisciplex
New Member
Hi!
I am using e-sword which already has a few commentaries. I think buying a study bible isn't really worth it because e-sword is much better than a normal bible. It can do things which a normal bible cannot do.
This sounds as if it's really easy to walk with Jesus.
But if it is so easy then why did Paul not directly get it right?
I am using e-sword which already has a few commentaries. I think buying a study bible isn't really worth it because e-sword is much better than a normal bible. It can do things which a normal bible cannot do.
This sounds as if it's really easy to walk with Jesus.
But if it is so easy then why did Paul not directly get it right?
I'm soooo happy that you have e-Sword! Outstanding! Yes, Paul had his battles between the flesh and the spirit, but in the final analysis he fought the good fight, ran the race, finished the course. Following Jesus is not always easy. There are good days and bad. However, He never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hallelujah! He'll never turn down a request to walk with you! Invite Him to do that EVERY morning, thank Him that He did every night ~~ in spite of what the world throws at you. Amen. :applause: :applause: :thumbs:
xdisciplex
New Member
:wavey:raise:
raise:
The reality is it is a choice that one must make each and every day to die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to live in and through them. Or a Christian can choose to live in the flesh. If he/she chooses to live in the flesh then there will be consequences both now and later.
Marcia
Active Member
We have been doing Romans in Sunday School and just finished Romans 7 recently. The more I read it, the more I think it is describing an unbeliever struggling to obey the Law - the way Paul tried to obey God as a Pharisee. I know both views and have read the pros and cons of each, but I think it's an unbeliever, and is set up as a contrast to Rom. 8.
Most of the SS class thinks it's about a believer struggling, but I still hold the other view.
Most of the SS class thinks it's about a believer struggling, but I still hold the other view.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1)
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (1 Corinthians 3:2)
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Corinthians 3:3)
Paul was speaking here to "brethren"-- They were Christians but they weren't growing spiritually--they could not eat "meat", so Paul had to speak to them as "babes" and feed them "milk".
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (1 Corinthians 3:2)
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Corinthians 3:3)
Paul was speaking here to "brethren"-- They were Christians but they weren't growing spiritually--they could not eat "meat", so Paul had to speak to them as "babes" and feed them "milk".
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Terry_Herrington
New Member
Linda64 said:
Right on target!:thumbs:
Unfortunately, carnal Christians come in all sizes and shapes. Some of them commit easily recognizable sins, such as adultery, theft, or other such sins; others commit sins such as strife, bitterness, or things that are not easily recognized. Then there are those who have their feet in both categories. They all end up paying a dear price for their actions. I fear that today these types of Christian are the norm rather than the exception.
Prov 14:14
14 The backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, but a good man will {be satisfied} with his.
(NAS)
xdisciplex
New Member
Great.
Does this mean that if I don't become spiritual I'm not even saved?
This sounds like carnal christians are carnal on purpose but I don't think they are.
This whole stuff sounds so easy but it's not easy.Like walking in the spirit. This sounds like a phrase to me. When you hear it you don't even know what it means or how you do it. How do I "walk" in the spirit? By praying every morning and asking God to let me walk in the spirit or what?
All these phrases don't help me. Once I emailed a pastor and asked him how to conquer habitual sins and he said that I have to become burning in the spirit. He even sent me some cds with his message how to become burning in the spirit. I listened to it and it didn't help me. It's not the case that all you have to do is listen to some advice and then follow them and then you get your results and in most cases the pastors do not even give clear,practicable advice. Very often their message sounds promising but afterwards you notice that you have not learned anything which really helps you.
After all what does it mean when a christian walks in the spirit? What is different between a carnal christian and a spiritual christian?
Does a spritual christian not sin anymore? Does he not get angry or depressed anymore and does nothing offend him anymore and he walks around with a huge smile?
Does this mean that if I don't become spiritual I'm not even saved?
This sounds like carnal christians are carnal on purpose but I don't think they are.
This whole stuff sounds so easy but it's not easy.Like walking in the spirit. This sounds like a phrase to me. When you hear it you don't even know what it means or how you do it. How do I "walk" in the spirit? By praying every morning and asking God to let me walk in the spirit or what?
All these phrases don't help me. Once I emailed a pastor and asked him how to conquer habitual sins and he said that I have to become burning in the spirit. He even sent me some cds with his message how to become burning in the spirit. I listened to it and it didn't help me. It's not the case that all you have to do is listen to some advice and then follow them and then you get your results and in most cases the pastors do not even give clear,practicable advice. Very often their message sounds promising but afterwards you notice that you have not learned anything which really helps you.
After all what does it mean when a christian walks in the spirit? What is different between a carnal christian and a spiritual christian?
Does a spritual christian not sin anymore? Does he not get angry or depressed anymore and does nothing offend him anymore and he walks around with a huge smile?
No it doesn't. Spiritual growth doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation.
When you are saved you are a new creation in Christ. It's as if you have been born all over again. Normally a child will drink milk for a while and then move on to mushed up food and then eventually to some harder food and then they will be able to eat real food.
So the progression is supposed to happen the same way in Spiritual growth. You start out by learning the milk, then you move on to meat and then you eventually progress to strong meat.
If a child doesn't eat then it will die. The same is true for a believer. If you don't feed on the Word of God you will eventually die. But it's not an eternal dying, because eternal salvation is not based on your growth it is based on whether or not you have faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.
If you have that faith then your eternal destiny is set and the issue is NEVER to be revisited again.
The problem is today Christians believe that they can live their life any ole way they please and there are no consequences, because too many of them have been taught that ALL their sins were forgiven when they were saved and that's just not true. They have bought into that lie and so they don't think much of doing the things that they do.
Now God tries to get them back into the fold, but He will only try for so long and then He will leave them to their own devices. But again it has nothing to do with eternal salvation, because that is based on what Christ did for you and not what you do for Him.
Hope that helps.
As to walking in the Spirit that is simply denying you wants, wishes and desires so that only His wants, wishes and desires are carried out through your members. Just CONSTANTLY be seeking His face, will and direction in your life and you will be walking by the Spirit. When you mis-step and He shows you your failing immediately confess it and start again seeking His face, will and direction. And it's just a continual process of dying to self's agenda and allowing God's agenda to be your agenda.
xdisciplex
New Member
Hmmm...
but the bible says that God reprehends those which he loves. How can I imagine this? I don't know if God has ever reprehended me, what if this is a bad sign?
And I also don't understand how this maturing is supposed to happen. I mean a new christian reads the same bible as an old christian. They read the same verses and the same books. It's not that a new christian starts with something easier and then progresses. He directly has the same bible and is exposed to the same verses which much more mature christians also read. Isn't this like entering a gym and directly trying to lift the same weights as people which have been lifting for years?
Sure, the first advice you will get is to read the gospels. Most suggest the gospel of John to start with. But you cannot always read the gospels and nothing else. And then you get to the really complicated books like Romans which are totally complicated and dry and have a huge density of information. And then you become frustrated because it's not easy to understand and easy to read at all and the other problem is also that there are also many scary passages in the bible. The gospels are uplifting and "nice" and you feel close to Jesus and all that but when you come to other books then it's totally different.
but the bible says that God reprehends those which he loves. How can I imagine this? I don't know if God has ever reprehended me, what if this is a bad sign?
And I also don't understand how this maturing is supposed to happen. I mean a new christian reads the same bible as an old christian. They read the same verses and the same books. It's not that a new christian starts with something easier and then progresses. He directly has the same bible and is exposed to the same verses which much more mature christians also read. Isn't this like entering a gym and directly trying to lift the same weights as people which have been lifting for years?
Sure, the first advice you will get is to read the gospels. Most suggest the gospel of John to start with. But you cannot always read the gospels and nothing else. And then you get to the really complicated books like Romans which are totally complicated and dry and have a huge density of information. And then you become frustrated because it's not easy to understand and easy to read at all and the other problem is also that there are also many scary passages in the bible. The gospels are uplifting and "nice" and you feel close to Jesus and all that but when you come to other books then it's totally different.
Great analogy! Of course someone just stepping into the gym for the first time wouldn't be able to lift the same amount of weight as a body builder even though it is the same equipment. And just as the mature Christian and the newborn Christian have access to the same Book they will get out of it in different measures.
I was always told to read the Gospel of John as well, but I think that is a mistake. And becuase of that a great number of folks have misunderstood and misinterpreted what the Gospels and especially the Gospel of John are all about.
Where would you start with any other book if you were going to read it? You would start at the beginning right? Why don't we tell people to start at the beginning of the Bible? That only makes sense.
God's revelation is a progressive revelation so why do we tell newborn Christians to start halfway through the revelation without any background to that point. Seems kind of silly to me.
I would start with Genesis and move from there. However learning was never intended to be a solo mission. Unforuntately today it is becoming harder and harder to find Christians that are grounded in Scripture so that they are able to mentor (disciple) others.
As to the first part of your point I don't know that you will always know that you are being chastened. And we have to be willing to be disciplined.
xdisciplex
New Member
I think if somebody who is interested in becoming a christian or at least seeking starts with Genesis then he'll most likely stop reading the bible as soon as he reaches the genealogies... :laugh:
I don't know if this is a very good advice for a seeker. Reading the gospels is good for seekers but what do you do when you already are a christian? You cannot only read the gospels to feel warm and fuzzy inside.
I think if I had read different books than the gospel in the beginning and come across some scary passages in the bible like for example Galatians 5:19-22 then it would have totally shocked me, I don't know how I would have dealt with that. In the beginning it was important for me to feel like God is on my side but when you are directly confronted with such scary things then it might make you feel alienated from God and then you ask yourself if God is angry at you and so on. Some christians can tolerate such things better than others.
I don't know if this is a very good advice for a seeker. Reading the gospels is good for seekers but what do you do when you already are a christian? You cannot only read the gospels to feel warm and fuzzy inside.
I think if I had read different books than the gospel in the beginning and come across some scary passages in the bible like for example Galatians 5:19-22 then it would have totally shocked me, I don't know how I would have dealt with that. In the beginning it was important for me to feel like God is on my side but when you are directly confronted with such scary things then it might make you feel alienated from God and then you ask yourself if God is angry at you and so on. Some christians can tolerate such things better than others.
Yes I was talking about someone already saved when saying they need to start in Genesis. The only message that an unsaved person can understand is that Christ died for them according to Scriptures. The must have their spirit made alive by the Holy Spirit in order for them to understand any other message, because the Bible is Spiritually discerned.