Would say that while you are free to worship on saturday as your sabbath, but from the bible , we are also free to worship on Sunday!
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is The Christian under still the OT sabbath day?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Would say that while you are free to worship on saturday as your sabbath, but from the bible , we are also free to worship on Sunday!
To use the seventh day of creation as a stick to whip on people for not obeying the sabbath assumes there is a command given in regards to that day. Is it good to rest? Yes. These bodies need it. The problem is the legalistic idea that by not taking a specified day is to sin. The problem is drawing a line on that seventh day that Himself did not draw.
As to the moral law...
Context matters. If I start a road trip in state A and enter state B I am accountable to the laws of state B. If state A and state B happen to have the same 70 MPH speed limit it does not mean that by driving 90 in state B I am also to be charged by state A for speeding.
We have 9 of the 10 Commandments re-commanded in some form in the NT. The fact that they are the same as those found in the OT does not change the fact that we are accountable for our being in the NT historical context....and not the OT.
We do obey out of love and awe of our most glorious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The issue is what are we to obey. Some would have us believe that that the various types of Sabbath's found in the OT still apply to us. Or at least some of the Sabbaths do. This accusation can only fly if we ignore what God says in His Word. Col 2:16 clearly says that no one is to judge the other in regard to this issue. You can try to explain that away all you want but that dog don't hunt. Now if you are one who is weak in the faith and need such a rigid understanding and application of the sabbath, per Romans 14, I wish you well and support your freedom in Christ to worship and fellowship corporately on the day that is according to your conscious.
In areas commanded by God, obey. In areas where God has given us great freedom then live according to your conscious and do not use your freedom as a means to cause others to stumble.
As to the moral law...
Context matters. If I start a road trip in state A and enter state B I am accountable to the laws of state B. If state A and state B happen to have the same 70 MPH speed limit it does not mean that by driving 90 in state B I am also to be charged by state A for speeding.
We have 9 of the 10 Commandments re-commanded in some form in the NT. The fact that they are the same as those found in the OT does not change the fact that we are accountable for our being in the NT historical context....and not the OT.
We do obey out of love and awe of our most glorious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The issue is what are we to obey. Some would have us believe that that the various types of Sabbath's found in the OT still apply to us. Or at least some of the Sabbaths do. This accusation can only fly if we ignore what God says in His Word. Col 2:16 clearly says that no one is to judge the other in regard to this issue. You can try to explain that away all you want but that dog don't hunt. Now if you are one who is weak in the faith and need such a rigid understanding and application of the sabbath, per Romans 14, I wish you well and support your freedom in Christ to worship and fellowship corporately on the day that is according to your conscious.
In areas commanded by God, obey. In areas where God has given us great freedom then live according to your conscious and do not use your freedom as a means to cause others to stumble.
You will find that none who claim to be for the Sabbath are able to actually keep it.
you are confusing MOSAIC legislation of the Sabbath with the pre-Mosaic Creation Sabbath which is the Sabbath under the NEW COVENANT (Psalm. 118:24; Heb. 4:2-11).
The Mosaic legislation or Old Covenant with its PLURAL "Sabbaths" (Col. 2:16 have been done away with by the cross.
The Mosaic dietary law has been abolished and we are under the pre-mosaic dietary law found in Genesis 9:3-4 or New Covenant dietary law.
The Mosiac house of God has been abolished and we are under the New Covenant house of God - 1 Tim. 3:15
The Mosaic Passover has been abolished and we are under the New Covenant Lord's Supper - 1 Cor. 11
Hence, there is a transition between Mosaic and New Covenant that bares similarity (passover to supper, temple to church, restricted dietary to unrestricted dietary, Levitical preisthood to personal preisthood, Saturday Sabbath to Sunday Sabbath or "Lord's Day").
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What do you mean by that?
I am not confusing anything. Col 2 talks about sabbaths. God did not see fit to state a different standard for one type of sabbath over another so we should not either.
In order for what is being suggested in this thread the original sabbath in the creation account has to come with a command to keep it in a certain way...and it does not.
Further those who condemn and harp on people for not keeping the sabbath their way are in sin based on Col 2:16 telling us to not let anyone judge us concerning this issue.
Any honest exposition of hebrews 4:1-11 will destroy both the Seventh Day Sabbatarian and your position equally. Note that the writer identifies the creation sabbath as the point of origin in Hebrews 4;4-6 and that neither the Seventh day of the week fulfilled it, neither palestine rest fulfilled it or the peace under David fulfilled and it is yet to be fulfilled according to verse 11 and so faith in the gospel did not fulfill it completely for them or for us (vv. 2-3) as they entered into spiritual rest through faith as much as we do (vv. 2-3).
The original commandment contains the words "sanctified it" meaning "set it apart" and Christ says it was "made for man"!
it is sort of amusing that my position makes Seventh Day Adventists mad as much as you.
Actually, think the writer of Hebrews is telling us that Christ is our Sabbath rest, in that we no longer have the oblgation/requirement to keep the law as under the old covenant, but to rest from our efforts to get right with God and instead trust in what he did on our behalf, as the law and all of its obligations and things against us were nailed to Him on the cross!
Well, related to this issue, the 7th Day crowd does teach things similar to what you spouting here. Although there are real differences the main point regarding the establishment and requirement of a sabbath is the same, and that is the issue at hand. So it makes sense that I would be equally saddened by the teachings of you both. I am not angry at all.
There is no command regarding the creation sabbath. You keep saying that there is but there none proven. Genesis 2 says He rested and He sanctified the day. How? By resting on it. No one here is against rest. It is a wise thing. The issue is the idea that there is a set day each week where we are commanded to rest and gather for corporate worship. That does not come from the creation account. That comes from the Law and the Old Covenant. It is not commanded of us.
Hebrews 4 does discuss our sabbath rest which is in Christ. We have no real argument on this. The sabbath God sanctified in the creation account is a picture of what is to come. The Law came and it showed us what sin is and the futility of trying to obey it in order to be righteous before God. Finally, Christ came as promised and He fulfilled the Law as the final and perfect sacrifice. Our rest is in Him. We enjoy it in part now, in a shadow of the authentic and full rest to come.
The problem is you keep ignoring Col 2, Rom 14, and Galatians and keep saying that we have a sabbath that is commanded for us to obey today.
Not to mention you stop to soon in Hebrews. If we keep reading, esp. chapters 7-9, we see how much better Christ is compared to the earthly priests and the sacrifices and the rules of worship (which revolve around sabbaths, specified times, and specified acts in a specified place. We are no longer bound to such things.
That said. It is clear neither of us will convince the other, as is the case with most of these threads. Enjoy your time on the merry go round.
There is no command regarding the creation sabbath. You keep saying that there is but there none proven. Genesis 2 says He rested and He sanctified the day. How? By resting on it. No one here is against rest. It is a wise thing. The issue is the idea that there is a set day each week where we are commanded to rest and gather for corporate worship. That does not come from the creation account. That comes from the Law and the Old Covenant. It is not commanded of us.
Hebrews 4 does discuss our sabbath rest which is in Christ. We have no real argument on this. The sabbath God sanctified in the creation account is a picture of what is to come. The Law came and it showed us what sin is and the futility of trying to obey it in order to be righteous before God. Finally, Christ came as promised and He fulfilled the Law as the final and perfect sacrifice. Our rest is in Him. We enjoy it in part now, in a shadow of the authentic and full rest to come.
The problem is you keep ignoring Col 2, Rom 14, and Galatians and keep saying that we have a sabbath that is commanded for us to obey today.
Not to mention you stop to soon in Hebrews. If we keep reading, esp. chapters 7-9, we see how much better Christ is compared to the earthly priests and the sacrifices and the rules of worship (which revolve around sabbaths, specified times, and specified acts in a specified place. We are no longer bound to such things.
That said. It is clear neither of us will convince the other, as is the case with most of these threads. Enjoy your time on the merry go round.
Actually, think the writer of Hebrews is telling us that Christ is our Sabbath rest, in that we no longer have the oblgation/requirement to keep the law as under the old covenant, but to rest from our efforts to get right with God and instead trust in what he did on our behalf, as the law and all of its obligations and things against us were nailed to Him on the cross!
REV.1 [7] Behold, HE COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of THE EARTH SHALL WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen.[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.[10] I was in the Spirit on THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a GREAT VOICE, as of A TRUMPET,
he cometh with clouds - of a trumpet - the Lord's day - a great voice - the earth shall wail
ZEPH.1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall CRY THERE BITTERLY.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,[16] A day of THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers
a day of clouds - of the trumpet - The great day of the LORD - even the voice - man shall cry there bitterly
See how these two scriptures are speaking of the same exact event. Pretty simple to see now that the Lords day is not sunday but another way to say the Day of the Lord.
No wonder you can't understand the scriptures as you exercise no interpretative skills.
Revelation 1:7-8 deal with one subject while Revelation 1:9-10 deal with another subject but you confuse them as one subject. Revelation 1:7-8 deal with Christ and His coming while Revelaiton 1:9-10 deal with the person of John and where he was exiled and for what reason.
Moreover, "the day of the Lord" and "the Lord's Day" are not the same in English or Greek. In every instance where the "day of the Lord" is mentioned it is always without exception the Greek term "kurios" that is used both in the New Testament and in the Greek Septuigent. In direct contrast, the "The Lord's day" uses "kuriakos" which is a special TECHNICAL term well known to the Roman world in the first century and only used one other time in the New Testament (1 Cor. 11:20).
The very reason that John was exiled was no doubt in regard to the very meaning of that technical term in the Roman world. Once a month the Emperor set apart one Sunday for emperor worship where every citizen was required by law to come before an altar and offer up a pinch of incense and say "Caesar is Lord." John no doubt refused to do that and that is why he was exiled as refusal was treated the same way as treason against Rome.
In contrast and in contradiction to the use of this well known term, both Paul and John used it to describe the things belonging to the Lord Jesus Christ:
1. The Lord's Supper
2. The Lord's day
ACTS 20 [7] And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.[8] And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
Yeah, they broke bread on sunday. You claim this is a sunday go to meetin thingy. Not so
ACTS 2 [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.[46] And they, CONTINUING DAILY with one accord in the temple, AND BREAKING BREAD from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
They broke bread everyday (daily). They were simply eating
Yeah my interpretive skills are not all that good. Thats why i let scripture interpret scripture. Cant go wrong that way. I do say your skill at interpretation is quite unique (spelled wrong i think)
yeah it is unique in comparison to yours! I rightly divide the word of truth according to the contextual subject matter while you simply ignore the obvious divisions in the context due to subject matter.
If I interpreted scripture like you do I could prove anything I wanted to prove.
You never did answer me. What exactly does that mean?
Really. Well then using only scripture show me why its ok for man to change Gods day of rest.
A. Fact #1 - The fourth commandment IS the sabbath law. There are no other commandments in scripture to draw the Sabbath law from.
B. Fact #2 - God applies the Sabbath law to other periods of time other than the seventh day in the month but to the first day, tenth day, 50th day as well as other periods of time such as a seventh "month" and seventh "year" and 50th "year."
C. Conclusion: The interpretation of the fourth commandment cannot be restricted to the seventh day "of the week" as God's own application of the Sabbath law EXCEEDS that restrictive interpretation. To demand that restrictive of interpretation is to condemn God's own application of the same law that EXCEEDS any specific day "of the week."
The Truth is that the Sabbath law can be inclusive of the seventh day of the week but not restricted to the seventh day of the week without doing violence to the Biblical application of that law to other time periods.
OK. Not quite sure what your point is {nor what your saying half the time}. I thought you were refering to scripture below when you spoke of days, months and years
GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
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1 Corinthians 16:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
That is pretty weak. No mention of the Lords day. No mention of rest. No mention of ....well nothing.