Is The Church Guilty Of Putting...

[Andy T.]

Webdog,

My wife has read the Alcorn book, and she liked it, too. Someone else is borrowing it, but I plan to read it when we get it back. I think we have lost the idea that the new heavens and earth is a physical place. We have also neglected our future hope - the resurrection of our bodies. I agree that we have become too gnostic when it comes to our eternal life. I've heard Piper's Future Grace is also a good book on these topics. I have it, but haven't read it yet.

 

[skypair]

Dave Hunt, I don't know what to think of that fellow. Is he helpful?

Not regarding eschatology, he's not. Only one thing that his word really brings out is that the next world war will be religious! Christian nations will be forced to take a warlike attitude regarding the Muslims and cut through the lies that Islam is a peaceful religion.

I am reading Pentecost's Things To Come. Have you read that one?

Him, Walvrood, Moody, McGee --- they're all a "good start," solid. Better, more current, I find are Hinson, LaHaye, Van Impe, Froese, Ice, Lindsey, myself. Then there are ones I won't pick up a book of theirs again cause it is all "rehash" -- Hitchcock, Jeffery, Price.

Today's church, the church @ Laodicea? I don't know.

Well, we're a "rich" church in goods, no? We've got so much going on in our lives- especially TV, job, kid activities, internet - that we are really pretty "lukewarm" to spiritual things (I'll speak for myself at least). And do you know that the Catholic Church and even many evangelical churches are trying to "make peace" with Islam and ignore Israel, God's "timepiece" for the end?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Part of the problem with preaching about eschatology is that we do fail to teach it the same way we would teach any other doctrine. In most doctrines we go from verse to verse and build it precept on precept. But with eschatology, we tend to go from verse to newspaper headline in an attempt to show that it could happen today.

Well, we've all seen the failures of those newspaper prophets. I don't take that bunch seriously at all.

While it could happen today, Paul seemed to think that it would happen in his life time: "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together..." So we ought to teach it, but we ought to teach it systematically.

I agree that eschatology must be taught systematically. That is why I believe premillennial view is strongest in these matters.

While I am at it, another pet peeve of mine about preaching about last things is that we preach it without regards to what it ought to change in our lives. The Biblical authors always said that if we have this hope we ought to to pure. If we have this hope, we ought to be steadfast in our labor for the Lord. The fact that Jesus would come is not to puff up our heads but to send us out to serve Him more faithfully.

HERE ENDETH THE RANT... :laugh:

Eschatology was meant to inspire Ethical living. That is what I see in Scripture.

 

[TCGreek]

I believe this to be a growing truth in our churches today.
In all that we do it should be done becauase of 1) Him and what He has done, and 2) He soon return - what He will do.

We as believers are to keep both before us at all times. Even coming together (assembling) aught to be done in light of the fact He is returning (Heb 10:25)

You are correct, and just about every NT book says something about the return of Christ.

It was that important to the first Christians, and I think it should be to us as well.

I think the church either puts to much emphasis on one side or the other. On the one side they will most often focus on Christ and what He has done (doctrine) and there is nothing inherently wrong with that except for it's tendency to slight Eschatology.

But on the other side some focus more on His return (prophesy) many times to the detriment of proper doctrine.

I think a balanced understanding will keep a church from a not caring attitude (so-to-speak) an from falling away from biblical doctrine. That we will stay the course knowing in whom we have beleived and that His return is soon. And at His return He might find us faithful and good stewards who excitedly awaited their masters return. Did not Jesus say "when the Son of Man returns, will he find faith in the earth?"

Well, the balance should be seen in Evangelism and Ethical living. That's being on the welcome committee. :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

Not regarding eschatology, he's not. Only one thing that his word really brings out is that the next world war will be religious! Christian nations will be forced to take a warlike attitude regarding the Muslims and cut through the lies that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Most seem to think so. Do we have scriptural hints?

Him, Walvrood, Moody, McGee --- they're all a "good start," solid. Better, more current, I find are Hinson, LaHaye, Van Impe, Froese, Ice, Lindsey, myself. Then there are ones I won't pick up a book of theirs again cause it is all "rehash" -- Hitchcock, Jeffery, Price.

I've read Walvoord, Hindson and I've listened to Ice and MacArthur.

Well, we're a "rich" church in goods, no? We've got so much going on in our lives- especially TV, job, kid activities, internet - that we are really pretty "lukewarm" to spiritual things (I'll speak for myself at least). And do you know that the Catholic Church and even many evangelical churches are trying to "make peace" with Islam and ignore Israel, God's "timepiece" for the end?

skypair

While the church at Laodicea is a strong possibility of our days, I think each church has a message for us:

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" is the familiar refrain at the end of each address to the churches.

To me that transcends each church and makes applications to the church age.

 

[lbaker]

Isn't the rebuilding of the Temple a big deal in Pre-Mil thinking?

What is going to be the purpose of the Temple if it is rebuilt. Will God re-inhabit it and accept sacrifices there again?

Doesn't that kind of undo what Jesus did 2000 years ago?

Just curious.

 

[webdog]

Isn't the rebuilding of the Temple a big deal in Pre-Mil thinking?

What is going to be the purpose of the Temple if it is rebuilt. Will God re-inhabit it and accept sacrifices there again?

Doesn't that kind of undo what Jesus did 2000 years ago?

Just curious.

A temple will be rebuilt, yes...but it won't be accepted by God. Those jews who have rejected Christ will be the ones rebuilding it, and it will occur after the rapture, IMO.

 

[Grasshopper]

Try this book:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf

By the way, the "end times" were a 1st century reality:

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

 

[TCGreek]

1. With the advent of Christ marked the beginning of the End:

"3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." (2 Pet 3:3-8, TNIV).

2. The last days, the end times, are about the second coming of Christ.

3. Has Christ returned? If not, then we're still in the last days, the end times.

 

[LeBuick]

Well, on Wednesday night at church, I'm teaching Revelation. My primary text has been that of prof. Grant Osborne in the Baker series, published in 2000. He leaves no stone undisturbed.

Then I've been following an outline by Dan B. Wallace of DTS. click here.

Do they only present one view or do they explore all the different views? If one view, which view do they support?

 

[J.D.]

Try this book:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.pdf

By the way, the "end times" were a 1st century reality:

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

Grasshopper, I'm going to read that book when I get a chance. Question: Do you deny a bodily resurrection for believers? Would that be a "hyper-preterist" teaching?

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, I'm going to read that book when I get a chance. Question: Do you deny a bodily resurrection for believers? Would that be a "hyper-preterist" teaching?

I don't know what I believe about that. It is the most difficult topic for me. I have one foot in full-preterism and one foot in partial-preterism. I am convinced the Truth is somewhere in this area but till I figure out exactly where, I ride the fence.

These might help present a scholarly view from a full-preterist position:

http://thereignofchrist.com/index.p...tion-of-the-dead&option=com_content&Itemid=48

http://thereignofchrist.com/index.p...ody-or-same-body&option=com_content&Itemid=48

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=61

I think maybe I have hit my IQ ceiling with this topic. I think it is much more complicated than just worm-eaten, physical bodies coming up out of the ground. I don't think that is what Paul had in mind, but I'm not sure.:BangHead:

 

[skypair]

Most seem to think so. Do we have scriptural hints [that WWIII will be spiritually motivated]?

First, because the Jews are involved (Zech 12-14), we see that it is against one "faith." And what does Israel possess that is worthy of world hatred? Certainly not wealth or political power. So the "plot" is centered on Satan's desire to destroy the inheritors of the earth (as has always been his wont).

I find the white horse to represent false Christianity and it's rider to be the false Christian leader -- the soon-to-be AC. Similarly, according to my dispensational approach, I find the red horse to be Islam, the black atheistic Gog, and the pale horse sickly Israel.

Another clue: the beast arises from being ridden by the MYSTERY BABYLON religion in Rome before becoming a political leader (he is "ridden" pretrib, Rev 17 -- he is the one "riding forth" when the trib opens, Rev 6:2).

And then, of course, there is the "abomination that causes desolation" which all are to worship. And for God's side, He says of this era "compel them [the "guests," Luke 14:23's version of Mt 22) to come in."

Yeah, the "final showdown" is spiritual -- Good vs. evil in all its forms.

While the church at Laodicea is a strong possibility of our days, I think each church has a message for us:

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" is the familiar refrain at the end of each address to the churches.

To me that transcends each church and makes applications to the church age.

Do all today's churches practice all the errors mentioned? Or do you discern differences in errors among different churches? Instance: one is going to be thrown in a bed and into great tribulation, Rev 2:22. Another will be "kept from the hour of testing," Rev 3:10. Same one church - "body of Christ?"

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

First, because the Jews are involved (Zech 12-14), we see that it is against one "faith." And what does Israel possess that is worthy of world hatred? Certainly not wealth or political power. So the "plot" is centered on Satan's desire to destroy the inheritors of the earth (as has always been his wont).

I got you.

I find the white horse to represent false Christianity and it's rider to be the false Christian leader -- the soon-to-be AC. Similarly, according to my dispensational approach, I find the red horse to be Islam, the black atheistic Gog, and the pale horse sickly Israel.

Well, that's the standard dispy interpretation.

Another clue: the beast arises from being ridden by the MYSTERY BABYLON religion in Rome before becoming a political leader (he is "ridden" pretrib, Rev 17 -- he is the one "riding forth" when the trib opens, Rev 6:2).

And then, of course, there is the "abomination that causes desolation" which all are to worship. And for God's side, He says of this era "compel them [the "guests," Luke 14:23's version of Mt 22) to come in."

So what prophecies apply to the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem?

Yeah, the "final showdown" is spiritual -- Good vs. evil in all its forms.

Do all today's churches practice all the errors mentioned? Or do you discern differences in errors among different churches? Instance: one is going to be thrown in a bed and into great tribulation, Rev 2:22. Another will be "kept from the hour of testing," Rev 3:10. Same one church - "body of Christ?"

skypair

I have no doubt that this will be the case, a good vs evil battle.

I think the errors of the churches were historical errors, but at the same time, churches will continue to have errors and must repent.

Isn't that the message to those in error?

 

[Timsings]

Personally, I think many spend far too much time on 'end times' and not enough on the 'here and now.' We need to be out and doing.

I agree. We are told that no one knows the hour of Christ's return. We can pray for it, but we have no influence over it. We can talk about it, but I don't believe that I know or can know anything about it. I have plenty of responsibilities in this world and in this time. These include proclaiming the gospel and dealing with the opportunities that God places before me each day to make the world a better place to live in. I refer the critics again to the parable of the Judgment in Matthew 25.31-46.

Tim Reynolds

 

[TCGreek]

Personally, I think many spend far too much time on 'end times' and not enough on the 'here and now.' We need to be out and doing.

This seems to be going against the very witness of the NT Scriptures.

In fact, it is because of the end, why we're to live godly lives:

"Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells" (2 Pet 3:11-13, TNIV, emphasis mine).

I challenge you to read them carefully.

 

[Crabtownboy]

This seems to be going against the very witness of the NT Scriptures.

In fact, it is because of the end, why we're to live godly lives:

"Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells" (2 Pet 3:11-13, TNIV, emphasis mine).

I challenge you to read them carefully.

Yes we ought to be stressing living holy and godly lives, and in helping our neighbors. We should not be naval gazing concerning on when the Lord will return. That is up to God and "no man knows." So to spend time on the unknown future when so much needs to be done NOW ... it is the now we have, it is the now we live in, it is the now we should be concerned about. If we take care of the "now" the future will take care of itself. Why? Because the future end times is up to God.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes we ought to be stressing living holy and godly lives, and in helping our neighbors. We should not be naval gazing concerning on when the Lord will return. That is up to God and "no man knows." So to spend time on the unknown future when so much needs to be done NOW ... it is the now we have, it is the now we live in, it is the now we should be concerned about. If we take care of the "now" the future will take care of itself. Why? Because the future end times is up to God.

I'm not for the naval, but at the same time Scripture has enjoined on us the need to live in anticipation of the coming of Christ (Titus 2:11-14).

Why should we help our neighbors? We should help our neighbors precisely because of the End Times.

There's no escaping the inescapable.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I'm not for the naval, but at the same time Scripture has enjoined on us the need to live in anticipation of the coming of Christ (Titus 2:11-14).

Why should we help our neighbors? We should help our neighbors precisely because of the End Times.

There's no escaping the inescapable.

To anticipate is one thing. To spend time and resources dwelling on something thay may happen today or in ten million years is wasteful. It is in God's hands when, so leave it there.

It is not end times that should drive our willingness to serve and help others ... rather it is the command of Christ to do so. Is the end times our god and the driving force of our faith, or is Christ?

 

[TCGreek]

To anticipate is one thing. To spend time and resources dwelling on something thay may happen today or in ten million years is wasteful. It is in God's hands when, so leave it there.

It is not end times that should drive our willingness to serve and help others ... rather it is the command of Christ to do so. Is the end times our god and the driving force of our faith, or is Christ?[/QUOTE]

You're ignore the plain teachings of Scripture on the matter:

Here's a command from Paul that is motivated by the End:

"Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near" (Phil 4:5).

And the following words are from the lips of Jesus:

32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' " (Mark 13).

All these commands by Jesus were given because of the End.

It's not about making the end times our god, but it is following the comands and teachings of our Lord.