Is The Church Guilty Of Putting...

[Crabtownboy]

It is not end times that should drive our willingness to serve and help others ... rather it is the command of Christ to do so. Is the end times our god and the driving force of our faith, or is Christ?[/B]

You're ignore the plain teachings of Scripture on the matter:

Here's a command from Paul that is motivated by the End:

"Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near" (Phil 4:5).

And the following words are from the lips of Jesus:

32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' " (Mark 13).

All these commands by Jesus were given because of the End.


It's not about making the end times our god, but it is following the comands and teachings of our Lord.

Why do you and other pastors insist on building a whole doctrine on one proof text? It is hard for me to understand that.

Of course we are to be on guard, spiritual guard and alert to avoid temptations.

However, Christ spoke much more about how we are to treat people and also the example of His life shows we are to go out and help others. He talks little about what we are to believe. He did, when talking and helping people talk about their actions:

"sell all you have................"
"go and sin no more.........."

Christ said nothing about 'end times' to the rich young ruler, the woman at the well, the people he healed, etc.

The passage in Matthew on the judgement stresses what we did, not what we believed:

I was hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in jail and ye.............................

We are to live in the here and now and not worry about the future .... worry about the problems of today.

I fear you ignore all the examples and teachings of Christ by dwelling on a hypothetical topic; when the Christ will return. In actuality we have been in the 'end times' since Christ returned to heaven.

Live today! Work today! Witness today!

 

[TCGreek]

Why do you and other pastors insist on building a whole doctrine on one proof text? It is hard for me to understand that.

Of course we are to be on guard, spiritual guard and alert to avoid temptations.

However, Christ spoke much more about how we are to treat people and also the example of His life shows we are to go out and help others. He talks little about what we are to believe. He did, when talking and helping people talk about their actions:

"sell all you have................"
"go and sin no more.........."
The passage in Matthew on the judgement stresses what we did, not what we believed:

I was hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in jail and ye.............................

We are to live in the here and now and not worry about the future .... worry about the problems of today.

I fear you ignore all the examples and teachings of Christ by dwelling on a hypothetical when it will happen end time.

Live today! Work today! Witness today!

Never once have I given you a date or anything like that.

I've given you Scripture upon Scripture, not just one prooftext.

Even Paul and Peter wrote with the end in mind.

"I was hungry, thirsty..." You should read from v. 31 of Matt 25; it's all about the end times.

We ought to live in the here and now with the end in mind. That is Scripture.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Never once have I given you a date or anything like that.

I've given you Scripture upon Scripture, not just one prooftext.

Even Paul and Peter wrote with the end in mind.

"I was hungry, thirsty..." You should read from v. 31 of Matt 25; it's all about the end times.

We ought to live in the here and now with the end in mind. That is Scripture.

But, the "I was hungry and thirsty" was referring to when they were alive on earth. You and I are now alive on earth. It is the now that is important. If we take care of the 'now', then we need not worry or be conderned about the future.

 

[TCGreek]

But, the "I was hungry and thirsty" was referring to when they were alive on earth. You and I are now alive on earth. It is the now that is important. If we take care of the 'now', then we need not worry or be conderned about the future.

So why do we need to take care of the NOW?

 

[Crabtownboy]

So why do we need to take care of the NOW?

The now is all we have in this life. The past is gone and the future has not arrived ... when it arrives it is the now and that is assuming we live until it arrives. All we have is the now. We humans are always in the now. We can think about the past. We can plan for the future. But in the final analysis what we have now is the present moment.

 

[TCGreek]

The now is all we have in this life. The past is gone and the future has not arrived ... when it arrives it is the now and that is assuming we live until it arrives. All we have is the now. We humans are always in the now. We can think about the past. We can plan for the future. But in the final analysis what we have now is the present moment.

I can tell you how to live, my brother,

but,

I'll live with the end in mind. I'll let biblical eschatology spur me on to righteous living.

That is what I see in Scripture, and I cannot ignore the obvious.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I can tell you how to live, my brother,

but,

I'll live with the end in mind. I'll let biblical eschatology spur me on to righteous living.

That is what I see in Scripture, and I cannot ignore the obvious.

If that works for you, then God bless you brother!:godisgood:

 

[skypair]

So what prophecies apply to the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem?

Luke 21:20-24 with reference of "days of vengeance" being to the parable in Mt 22:7.

I think the errors of the churches were historical errors, but at the same time, churches will continue to have errors and must repent.

So no distinctives one vs. another. Hmm.

Isn't that the message to those in error?

Rev 2:22 -- "...I will cast her [Thyatira] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her [Ephesus, Pergammum, Sardis, Laodicea, and the world] into great tribulation,..."

skypair

 

[MB]

I fear you ignore all the examples and teachings of Christ by dwelling on a hypothetical topic; when the Christ will return. In actuality we have been in the 'end times' since Christ returned to heaven.

Live today! Work today! Witness today!

"Worry looks around, sorry looks back, Faith looks up."

First of all there is nothing hypothetical about bible prophecy, I believe every word of it. Don't you?

Prophecy shows the way to Christ more than anyother subject. To be ignorant of it is a mistake IMHO. It is fulfilled prophecy that proves Christ is who He claims to be. Most of the Bible is prophecy whether in the future or fulfilled. If we ignore it we are ignoring what was meant for us to know. How can we be properly prepared if we have no idea?. How can we witness if we are ignorant of prophecy? How can we say that Christ will return or for that matter know it is true?. You say we should be out witnessing instead. What about your self. How do you witness thinking prophecy is hypothetical?
MB

 

[TCGreek]

Luke 21:20-24 with reference of "days of vengeance" being to the parable in Mt 22:7.

Isn't this Luke reference the parallel of Matt 24, regarding the AD 70 destruction?

Rev 2:22 -- "...I will cast her [Thyatira] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her [Ephesus, Pergammum, Sardis, Laodicea, and the world] into great tribulation,..."

skypair

Rev 2:22 is speaking about the church at Thyatira.

Your hermeneutics is off on that one. I simply cannot agree.

Those were historical churches.

From your understanding of those churches, it seems like they have lost their historicity.

 

[TCGreek]

"Worry looks around, sorry looks back, Faith looks up."

First of all there is nothing hypothetical about bible prophecy, I believe every word of it. Don't you?

Prophecy shows the way to Christ more than anyother subject. To be ignorant of it is a mistake IMHO. It is fulfilled prophecy that proves Christ is who He claims to be. Most of the Bible is prophecy whether in the future or fulfilled. If we ignore it we are ignoring what was meant for us to know. How can we be properly prepared if we have no idea?. How can we witness if we are ignorant of prophecy? How can we say that Christ will return or for that matter know it is true?. You say we should be out witnessing instead. What about your self. How do you witness thinking prophecy is hypothetical?
MB

Smartly put. :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

Isn't this Luke reference the parallel of Matt 24, regarding the AD 70 destruction?

Same passage but in Luke, Jesus appears to answer the disciples question regarding the temple whereas in Mt He doesn't. It is said that it was the Luke passage that warned the Gentiles to leave Jerusalem before 70 AD whereas the Jews were slain.

Rev 2:22 is speaking about the church at Thyatira.

Your hermeneutics is off on that one. I simply cannot agree.

Hey, I wasn't revealing what Reform believers see. :laugh:

From your understanding of those churches, it seems like they have lost their historicity.

Truth is, the "historical" churches were merely "props" for revealing the future, TC. Such as, isn't it "quaint" (but who cares) that Laodicea had hot springs and cold springs feeding the water system. Is there ANYTHING helpful to us about the "historicities" of these cities? N-n-n-no. John could have mentioned 20 cities. He could have named 7 totally other cities. Tell me what the significance to us is of these actual cities.

And remember, TC, The Revelation is a book LOADED with imagery. And here you stand insisting on literal-only applications!

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Same passage but in Luke, Jesus appears to answer the disciples question regarding the temple whereas in Mt He doesn't. It is said that it was the Luke passage that warned the Gentiles to leave Jerusalem before 70 AD whereas the Jews were slain.

Ok, I'm in agreement as long as they're seen as parallels.

Hey, I wasn't revealing what Reform believers see. :laugh:

I'm not Reformed in my ordo eschaton. If I were, I'll be a covenant theology/replacement theology guy. Let's keep that straight! :thumbs:

[QOUTE]Truth is, the "historical" churches were merely "props" for revealing the future, TC. Such as, isn't it "quaint" (but who cares) that Laodicea had hot springs and cold springs feeding the water system. Is there ANYTHING helpful to us about the "historicities" of these cities? N-n-n-no. John could have mentioned 20 cities. He could have named 7 totally other cities. Tell me what the significance to us is of these actual cities.[/QUOTE]

If you're prepared to divorce what we read about the 7 churches from their historical setting, then go right ahead. But I won't follow you.

Not even Walvoord or Hindson, two leading dispy premils are willing to do that.

I will grant that they have significance for the church throughout its period on earth.

And remember, TC, The Revelation is a book LOADED with imagery. And here you stand insisting on literal-only applications!

skypair

The main reason why I converted to the premil position is because of it insistence on the literal interpretation of the prophetic Scripture.

This doesn't mean that we ignore the symbols and so on, but we must understand them in context.

The 7 churches were historical to the core.

 

[skypair]

Not even Walvoord or Hindson, two leading dispy premils are willing to do that.

I don't "divorce" them from history. I merely say that 1) they do not exist today -- literally -- and 2) the importance of even looking at those churches is to study the continuing SPIRITUAL aspects of each.

This doesn't mean that we ignore the symbols and so on, but we must understand them in context.

And do you? I do.

So you are not amil, postmil, or preterist. How about this --- do you see the church preparing the earth for Christ's return as D. James Kennedy did? Is that why you hesitate to identify any church eras? Is that why you refuse to see that the last church is WORSE at "changing the world" than all the rest?

See, Rev 2-3 were definitely NOT written to show us the church converting the world religiously, politically, or economically. But know what? The is PRECISELY what AC's church teaches. And as soon as the rapture hits, he will say, "The tares were taken by the angels and now all "wheat" ["believers"] must gather into my "barn" (Satan's version of Mt 13:30) And those who thought they were preparing the way for Christ's kingdom to come will have self-fulfilled their own prophecy -- the "strong delusion" that Paul spoke of in 2Thes 2:11.

So I don't know if that is your "hangup" but you do seem to hesitate at some important dispy elements.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I don't "divorce" them from history. I merely say that 1) they do not exist today -- literally -- and 2) the importance of even looking at those churches is to study the continuing SPIRITUAL aspects of each.

We're in agreement on this. :thumbs:

So you are not amil, postmil, or preterist. How about this --- do you see the church preparing the earth for Christ's return as D. James Kennedy did? Is that why you hesitate to identify any church eras? Is that why you refuse to see that the last church is WORSE at "changing the world" than all the rest?

The late D. James Kennedy's view is quite postmil.

The reason I do not identify a particular church era is because the Scripture doesn't.

Until I'm convinced by Scripture, I cannot definitively identify a church era as some dispys do.

See, Rev 2-3 were definitely NOT written to show us the church converting the world religiously, politically, or economically. But know what? The is PRECISELY what AC's church teaches. And as soon as the rapture hits, he will say, "The tares were taken by the angels and now all "wheat" ["believers"] must gather into my "barn" (Satan's version of Mt 13:30) And those who thought they were preparing the way for Christ's kingdom to come will have self-fulfilled their own prophecy -- the "strong delusion" that Paul spoke of in 2Thes 2:11.

So I don't know if that is your "hangup" but you do seem to hesitate at some important dispy elements.

skypair

From what you've outlined about Rev 2-3 that smacks of postmil, so that's not me.

Yes, the AC will have his day.

 

[skypair]

The reason I do not identify a particular church era is because the Scripture doesn't.

OK. Just checking. :thumbs:

Until I'm convinced by Scripture, I cannot definitively identify a church era as some dispys do.

Yet Rev 2-3 IS scripture, my man! Unconvincing scripture? Is it unconvincing that the church lost her love at a given point in time? that she was persecuted at another period? that she embraced Nicolaitans at yet another? that being "cast into a bed and into [not great persecution, but] great tribulation" is yet another time? What time does "spew thee out of My mouth" represent (have you seen it?)?

A few days ago, it sounded to me like you were searching out the dispy premil view of The Revelation. Where is the "blind alley" that deterred your quest?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

OK. Just checking. :thumbs:

Yet Rev 2-3 IS scripture, my man! Unconvincing scripture? Is it unconvincing that the church lost her love at a given point in time? that she was persecuted at another period? that she embraced Nicolaitans at yet another? that being "cast into a bed and into [not great persecution, but] great tribulation" is yet another time? What time does "spew thee out of My mouth" represent (have you seen it?)?

Today for us the key is this expression: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

I believe that every one of the 7 churches has something to teach the church today.

There might even be prophetic elements in some of the addresses.

The 10 days of suffering in Rev 2:10, Are they literal?

A few days ago, it sounded to me like you were searching out the dispy premil view of The Revelation. Where is the "blind alley" that deterred your quest?

skypair

Well, I don't buy into the 7 churches representing 7 church eras.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing it here.