Christ died on behalf of his body/bride, his flock, those would be the members in the Universal church!
he did not die for 1st baptist atlanta, but for all saved in that church!
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Is the Church local, universal or both?
- Thread starter Soulman
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Christ died on behalf of his body/bride, his flock, those would be the members in the Universal church!
he did not die for 1st baptist atlanta, but for all saved in that church!
Tom Butler
New Member
Of course, the real members of FBC Atlanta are all believers. Lost people who have their names on the roll forfeit any claim to being part of that (or any) church. They are not a legitimate part of the body.
Paul warned about those folks who would infiltrate a congregation and seek to spread false beliefs and practices.
The truechurch of christ have ALL members saved in her, while local churches have both saved/lost in her!
Tom Butler
New Member
If you're right (of course I don't think you are), then the true church is filled with people who believe and practice error. That will include some saved Catholics, Church of Christ (baptismal regeneration), Methodists (apostasy) and a bunch of other faith groups.
that would be true, for its does not mean that ALL your theology is corrdct and biblical, but that the doctrine regarding Christ and the Cross is!
Being a calvinist, would see it as being the lord redeeming and saving out from sinners his chosen people, but some of them still have errors in theology despite getting saved!
I don't see how you can reconcile church or assembly, which of necessity must be local, with the word "universal." They don't go together and cannot.
Like your family in your house, it is local, in one place. How do you have a universal family that sits down for prayer at a meal time, that goes together to church, that has any family function. How does your "family" operate "universally." It is impossible isn't it? A "universal family"? That is quite the concept. It doesn't exits. It can't function as a unit. How would you procreate to have children (universally)? That would be interesting. It just doesn't make sense.
Yet you apply the same nonsensical reason to the word "assembly" the Greek word for "church" and don't even realize that it doesn't make any sense at all. There is no such thing as a universal church, and even to use the word in a universal sense (a universal family or assembly) is totally ridiculous. The two terms contradict each other. Every church must of a necessity be local, or they aren't churches/assemblies.
Now in our local church, which happens to be IFB, we know that they are saved. They have given before all their salvation testimony. They have been baptized. Their fruit demonstrates or gives evidence of a saved life. It is a small church. We know each other well. The picture of the local church, the body, given in 1Cor.12 fits very well.
Where one member suffers all the members suffer also.
How can that possibly refer to a non-existent U-church. It can't.
It's not that difficult to understand. Every saved person is in God's universal church. The local church is the active, defined subset of God's universal church.
Yes! for if you were to ask God which church he sees in your local city, it would be all of the saved in that city,regardless of the name on the building!
The building is not the church. The "assembly" or the people assembled is the church.
A church is an assembly of baptized believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper).
The words "universal" and "assembly" cannot sit side by side together.
It is an oxymoron: "The Grateful Dead" "accurate estimate" "almost exactly" "clever fool" "universal church"
They don't go together do they?
Why do you say Jesus has only one church?
He is the head of my church.
Does that mean he is not the head of yours?
If that is the logic you assume, it is sad.
saturneptune
New Member
Tom Butler
New Member
Well, we can't have it both ways. If there's only one church, then we can't have both a universal church and a local church.
Here's Ephesians 4:4-5
The question is, if there's only one body, what kind of body is it. The answer seems to me to be obvious. It is the kind we can see. It is the kind we attend; where we worship, fellowship, do Bible Study. It is the kind where we assemble.
In I Corinthians 12, Paul described the congregation at Corinth as THE BODY of Christ, and the people who assembled there as members in particular (12:27)
When Paul speaks of the body in Ephesians 4, does he mean one body or one kind of body? He also talks about one baptism--one kind of baptism. Not just a single occurrence of baptism.
Dr. Herschael York, Professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary writes about this:
So, what about I Corinthians 12:13?
The popular view holds that it is the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into the body (the universal church)
But wait. The same Paul who wrote that also said there's only one kind of baptism. Dr. York asks, if it is baptism BY the Spirit, what is the point of water baptism? A second kind of baptism.
Now consider these scriptures:
Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist said the one who comes after him will baptize IN the Holy Spirit. Not BY.
Acts 1:5, Jesus says For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized WITH the Holy Ghost not many days.
Dr. York says this is Jesus' way of putting his stamp of approve on the church---which by the way, he established during his ministry, well before Pentecost.
his passage means that being in or under the power of the Holy Spirit we were all brought by the Lord to water baptism, and thus were made mambers of His body, the local church. Thus, baptism is the ceremonial door to the church.
church
So, it is clear that in I Cor 12:13 the Greek en should be translated in one Spirit, not by one Spirit. That under the power of the Holy Spirit we were all brought by the Lord to baptism, and thus were made members of His body (in this case, FBC Corinth). So water baptism into the local church is in view, and so it is with every similar kind of body.
To sum up, Ephesians 4:4-5 clearly says you can't have two kinds of bodies or two kinds of baptisms.
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again...
ALL saved persons are in the One true church, his body/bride...
Some saved are local members of local churches, while some are still lost!
those of His Church are saved by his Grace, but still can have faulty doctrines in areas, as the local church can and does at times express just that!
Your statement makes no sense. The Greek word for church is ekklesia or assembly.
"He is the head over his assembly (which never assembles and cannot assemble until eternity), and some of his members (of a non-existent assembly) attend my (church assembly--redundant expression) while others attend your assembly."
Tom Butler
New Member
Here's an interesting passage
Matthew 1817
Whether Jesus established His church during his earthly ministry (my view), or at Pentecost, makes no difference. The church in view is a local congregation. An assembled entity. One cannot tell it to the U-Church. It is a logistical impossibility, since the U-church does not assemble.
Of course, that's because it doesn't exist. Just had to throw that in.
Matthew 1817
Jesus is speaking here, and He's giving instruction on church discipline. Now, some may say that he's talking about the future, post-Pentecost.
Whether Jesus established His church during his earthly ministry (my view), or at Pentecost, makes no difference. The church in view is a local congregation. An assembled entity. One cannot tell it to the U-Church. It is a logistical impossibility, since the U-church does not assemble.
Of course, that's because it doesn't exist. Just had to throw that in.
Again, the Universal church is the Body of Christ, His bride, who are made up of those who have already died, and those here alive!
Those members of his church attend local assemblies, churches....
When Jesus says this is My Church, its the Fulness of all whom he has saved, regardless of the label on the assembly place!
per paul, God already sees us in the Heavemlies seated with Chrsit, so from the viewpoint of god, the one true church has already assembled in heaven, as to Him the future is all right now!
but there is still things to come from our viewpoints, so that Church scattered in and among various assenblies here on earth, whrats seated with the tares!
Tom Butler
New Member
The church established by Jesus during his earthly ministry was visible and local. After the resurrection, the small band located in Jerusalem. It, too, was a local assembly. They assembled every day, as a matter of fact.
Is there anyone here who equates that first assembly with the universal church? Remember, this is the only church there is at this point.
I read somebody who took the position that for a time, everybody in the Body of Christ (meaning, Universal Church) was a member of one local church--the one in Jerusalem.
So, when did the local church become distinct from the universal church. And why call it universal if it was local? And when did the local church become the mystical, universal and invisible? Remember I Cor 12:27 Paul, to fBC Corinth--"-Now YE are THE body of Christ."
I'm still looking for the meeting place of the U-Church.
Is there anyone here who equates that first assembly with the universal church? Remember, this is the only church there is at this point.
I read somebody who took the position that for a time, everybody in the Body of Christ (meaning, Universal Church) was a member of one local church--the one in Jerusalem.
So, when did the local church become distinct from the universal church. And why call it universal if it was local? And when did the local church become the mystical, universal and invisible? Remember I Cor 12:27 Paul, to fBC Corinth--"-Now YE are THE body of Christ."
I'm still looking for the meeting place of the U-Church.
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