Is the Church local, universal or both?

[Revmitchell]

What happens is that in order to fight against bad teachings (ie from the Catholic church) Some Christians take up other bad doctrines to defend against it.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Is the word church used in this verse meaning only one specific church or is it applicable to all churches?

Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Is Jesus only going to present to Himself one single local assembly or is it all local assemblies?

 

[salzer mtn]

Act's 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. This verse didn't say the members took a vote to add to the church, but the Lord added to the church. There is a church, the bride, the body of Christ, the kingdom and there is also a local assembly of believers called the church.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

That makes no sense. So "possibly" Jesus only took care to build that one single church. All others are on their own in your view?

Yes, it makes sense... I think some of the source of confusion is that it must be understood that I believe (and all people with my POV, I think) believe in something that might be called the "Church General". This is, of course, to say, that when Christ built his "Church" he intended it to expand...more to be planted, and other "Assemblies" to incorporate...

To deny the notion of a "Universal Church" is to insist that the "Church" is distinct from merely "all saved and regenerate Saints in the New Testament era".

The "Church General" (the term I'm using) is what is spoken of when Paul might say "...and so ordain I in all Churches" or similarly, "...if any man seem to be contentious, we have no tradition neither the Churches of God". The "Church General" is what me might mean by the SUM TOTAL of all of the Local Autonomous New Testament Assemblies throughout all of New Testament History...

What the "Church" is NOT, though, is a correct way to describe a random amalgam of all regenerate persons throughout the course of Post-New-covenant history...Those are "Saints" they are "Saved" they are "Elect", they are "Children of God" and they are "Heirs"...and other terms ad nauseum...what they are NOT though, is properly defined as the "CHURCH".

The "Church" is a CORPORATE ASSEMBLY of believers in covenant together to carry on the Great Commission, and the "Church General"...might be the term to describe the sum-total of all of those Assemblies combined.....But, it is NOT merely a description of any and everyone who once yacked the "Sinner's Prayer" and is subsequently "saved". That isn't the "Church".

The doctrine makes sense, and it has something of a previously respected history throughout Baptist History. It just isn't as common today. HoS...is not conjuring this idea out of whole-cloth. I promise :laugh:
Maybe this will clear up some of the objections you have....We may be talking past each other.

 

[Revmitchell]

The "Church" is a CORPORATE ASSEMBLY of believers in covenant together to carry on the Great Commission, and the "Church General"...might be the term to describe the sum-total of all of those Assemblies combined.....But, it is NOT merely a description of any and everyone who once yacked the "Sinner's Prayer" and is subsequently "saved". That isn't the "Church".

Terminology is why we are talking past each other. I have never said anything about a "universal church" in the context of what the Catholic church teaches. You are splitting hairs and proving my point in an earlier post.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Act's 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. This verse didn't say the members took a vote to add to the church, but the Lord added to the church. There is a church, the bride, the body of Christ, the kingdom and there is also a local assembly of believers called the church.

You may be assumming too much Salzer...this passage is not divorced from the previous statement in:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Random "Christians" do not have the authority to "baptize"..read further:
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
There was an "addition"...not of "saved people"....but those who were Baptized..by the 11....who plausibly constituted the "Church"...Note that most Baptist Churches will accept "membership" either through "Baptism"...or a "letter" (which requires Baptism by a Church of like Faith and order) or a "Statement" (which assumes salvation AND Baptism...by a Chuch of 'like Faith and Order' ")....there is a reason that that is a part of the Constitution and By-Laws of MOST Baptist Churches...the issue is not the simple "slam-dunk" that you seem to think it is...There is WAY more to Church Polity than this.

The "Church" in the New Testament is INVARIABLY referred to in terms of a local and indeed congregate and corporate BODY of believers...and on the rare occassion when the term is used...it is usually "pluralized" in order to suggest a term like "CHURCHES"....(a pluralization of the word "Church"...Which LITERALLY means "Assembly").

The "Church" however, is not, according to Scripture simply a dis-embodied, non-incorporate, non-local, dis-organized random amalgam of any and everyone who names the name of Christ....

Nothing I know of in the Scriptures defines the "Church" as such a thing. Try in Vain...not EVERYONE who is saved in the Scriptures is necessarily called the "CHURCH"

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Terminology is why we are talking past each other. I have never said anything about a "universal church" in the context of what the Catholic church teaches. You are splitting hairs and proving my point in an earlier post.

Obviously, neither you nor I accept the notion of the "Universal" Church in the same way the Catholics teach...I didn't assume that in the least. The Catholic notion is beyond false...I am telling you that I do not believe there is such a "thing" or entity as the "CHURCH" which is ANYTHING more than the sum total of all New Testament local Assemblies....

I do not believe that once one becomes "saved" that they become a part of the "Church"...

The Scriptures NEVER define anyone who has become "saved" as a member of something called the "Church"...that's my point. I think you might need to read my previous post to you again.

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul, writing to the congregation of Corinth described it as THE Body of Christ. Not A body, but THE body. ( I Cor 12) This should establish that each local congregation may rightly be called THE body of Christ.

In that same chapter, he noted that we are baptized into the Body. That's water baptism, of course, the doorway to membership in the Body--the local church which Paul defined as like FBC Corinth.

 

[Tom Butler]

There will be a time and place when the Churches and the Kingdom will be one. At the great General Assembly of the saints in heaven.

 

[Soulman]

The Church isn't universal. Simply because not everyone will be saved. The Church is the bride of Christ.
The Great commission is a commandment to spread the gospel and it is for every believer.
MB

Universal as used in this discussion means all n.t. churches lumped together equal the universal church. The churches first of all are not solely the bride of Christ. The bible never refers to the church in this manner. The bible teaches that they dead in Christ will rise first. This includes o.t. saints and others that never belonged to a church at all. Please show me where the great commission was given to anyone other than the church.

 

[Yeshua1]

Act's 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. This verse didn't say the members took a vote to add to the church, but the Lord added to the church. There is a church, the bride, the body of Christ, the kingdom and there is also a local assembly of believers called the church.

the lord does NOT see local churches, he sees His people of the Universal/Invisible church sitting there in the pews, and when he calls them home, he calls by name, not by Baptist/Catholic/methodist labels!

 

[Yeshua1]

Terminology is why we are talking past each other. I have never said anything about a "universal church" in the context of what the Catholic church teaches. You are splitting hairs and proving my point in an earlier post.

Think that you "nailed it" here, as many who see, rightfully, that the Church of rome is NOT what it claims to be, in rejecting their claims to being the true Universal church, reject that label for any other church!

 

[percho]

I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18

Just a quick reading of that I would say one isn't saved into the church, but built, assembled to be saved.

that he might present it to himself the assembly in glory, not having spot or wrinkle, or any of such things, but that it may be holy and unblemished; Eph 5:27

When will she be the assembly in glory? When the gates of Hades have been prevented from prevailing against her?

Where of you death the sting, where of you Hades the victory? 1 Cor 15:55

 

[Soulman]

the lord does NOT see local churches, he sees His people of the Universal/Invisible church sitting there in the pews, and when he calls them home, he calls by name, not by Baptist/Catholic/methodist labels!

The Lord does see ALL local churches. That is how He set the church up. He sees people that are members of these local churches. If you aren't a member of a local church it doesn't mean you are automatically part of a universal or invisible church. They are N.T. saints and part of God's kingdom. Universal or invisible are man made terms and are unbiblical.

 

[Soulman]

Think that you "nailed it" here, as many who see, rightfully, that the Church of rome is NOT what it claims to be, in rejecting their claims to being the true Universal church, reject that label for any other church!

You did nail it! The Catholic church is a false church denomination. That is all they are. They should not even be put into the category of Christian.

 

[Soulman]

What happens is that in order to fight against bad teachings (ie from the Catholic church) Some Christians take up other bad doctrines to defend against it.



Is the word church used in this verse meaning only one specific church or is it applicable to all churches?
All true local N.T. churches. There are a lot of false churches out there that don't hold to the truth. Satan is an angel of light.


Is Jesus only going to present to Himself one single local assembly or is it all local assemblies?

All Local assemblies. That doesn't make them universal. It makes them one as Christ and the Father are one.

 

[Soulman]

Act's 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. This verse didn't say the members took a vote to add to the church, but the Lord added to the church. There is a church, the bride, the body of Christ, the kingdom and there is also a local assembly of believers called the church.

Who says the members should have a vote in the first place as the pastor leads under the Lordship of Christ. The Lord adds to my church pretty consistently.

 

[Soulman]

Yes, it makes sense... I think some of the source of confusion is that it must be understood that I believe (and all people with my POV, I think) believe in something that might be called the "Church General". This is, of course, to say, that when Christ built his "Church" he intended it to expand...more to be planted, and other "Assemblies" to incorporate...

To deny the notion of a "Universal Church" is to insist that the "Church" is distinct from merely "all saved and regenerate Saints in the New Testament era".

The "Church General" (the term I'm using) is what is spoken of when Paul might say "...and so ordain I in all Churches" or similarly, "...if any man seem to be contentious, we have no tradition neither the Churches of God". The "Church General" is what me might mean by the SUM TOTAL of all of the Local Autonomous New Testament Assemblies throughout all of New Testament History...

What the "Church" is NOT, though, is a correct way to describe a random amalgam of all regenerate persons throughout the course of Post-New-covenant history...Those are "Saints" they are "Saved" they are "Elect", they are "Children of God" and they are "Heirs"...and other terms ad nauseum...what they are NOT though, is properly defined as the "CHURCH".

The "Church" is a CORPORATE ASSEMBLY of believers in covenant together to carry on the Great Commission, and the "Church General"...might be the term to describe the sum-total of all of those Assemblies combined.....But, it is NOT merely a description of any and everyone who once yacked the "Sinner's Prayer" and is subsequently "saved". That isn't the "Church".

The doctrine makes sense, and it has something of a previously respected history throughout Baptist History. It just isn't as common today. HoS...is not conjuring this idea out of whole-cloth. I promise :laugh:
Maybe this will clear up some of the objections you have....We may be talking past each other.

By George! I think you've got it! Great explaination!!

 

[Berean]

THE Church undeniably is universal, (catholic), one, or whatever way you want to say it.

 

[convicted1]

Act's 2:47 And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. This verse didn't say the members took a vote to add to the church, but the Lord added to the church. There is a church, the bride, the body of Christ, the kingdom and there is also a local assembly of believers called the church.

Amen, Brother, amen!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[saturneptune]

Both concepts are taught in Scripture, local and universal. I am a strong believer in the local church in carrying out God's work on this earth. The universal church is an abstract concept on this earth before eternity. The universal church (all believers) never helped the sick, poor, or needy. The universal never sponsered a missionary in foreign lands. It never went on visitation. It never took up an offering. It never conducted a worship service. It never administered the Lords Supper or Baptism. It never chose deacons, elders or called a pastor. It never offered praise and honor to the Lord. In other words, the universal church here on earth is a useless entity. In eternity is another matter.

Catholics worry about a universal visible church, and we see the results of that. Protestants refashioned the model to use a universal, invisible church, more science fiction. We are Baptists. Our churches are local, visible churchs, designed to carry out the work of the Lord. The churches in the NT are clearly local churches. All having a hierarchy does is waste money, and put levels of government between a lost and dying world and the local NT church. Presbyters, bishops, cardinals and other hierarchy officials of various stripes in essence take of space and waste our food supply while accomplishing nothing for the Lord.

Even when Catholics refer to their "one true church" they in reality do not believe in a universal church as Scripture speaks of. The universal church is all believers from start to end. Catholics conceive the universal church as a roll call of their members, with others headed for the Lake of Fire. Protestants hold to a "universal, invisible" church, or as they put it, the holy catholic church, communion of saints, etc. Again, they fail to give any function of the true universal church outside their own denominational lines.

Revelation speaks of and gives a vivid picture of the universal church, as we all stand before the Lord. The bride and all redeemed come out of the universal church. This is future tense. How does a universal church, here and now, on this earth, (you know, blue sky, green trees, people walking around) carrying out the last chapter of Matthew?

I do agree the point made by several that the church was added to daily, and not voted on. That is another thread about church government. Surfice to say, it says daily, not after some period of indoctrination, communicants class, examination, or other such nonsense probation period.

We are here to tell others about Jesus. We are not here to create levels of government, wear stupid looking costumes and wave pots with smoke coming out. We are not here to waste the Lord's money, as it is all His. We are not here to make power grabs within a local church, or argue over the thickness of the toilet paper.

Until you die, the local church is God's instrument for us to accomplish His work.