• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

is the Cross Of Christ ONLY way God Could Save us?

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Was the Cross the ONLY way/means God could have even saved us?

that their was NO other choice, IF God was to save anyone, the Cross was it?
 

Amy.G

New Member
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


It was God's will that Christ die for our sins. There is no other way to the Father.
 

Tater77

New Member
Well there is another option. Follow the law the letter daily and never once sin. That is you must be perfect and sin free.


Since thats never gonna happen and never has with the exception of Christ Himself, then the cross is the only way.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well there is another option. Follow the law the letter daily and never once sin. That is you must be perfect and sin free.


Since thats never gonna happen and never has with the exception of Christ Himself, then the cross is the only way.

I dont understand, how is that an option if your born with original sin?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Could he have created Adam and Eve without putting the tree in the garden?
No law, no sin, right? Would Cain have still killed Able?

Could God have created us as creatures unable to sin? Just skipped the earthly (fallible) body thing and straight to the glorified perfected bodies?

Obviously, this is just a speculative thread, so thought I'd add these questions to the mix...
 

Winman

Active Member
Could he have created Adam and Eve without putting the tree in the garden?
No law, no sin, right? Would Cain have still killed Able?

Could God have created us as creatures unable to sin? Just skipped the earthly (fallible) body thing and straight to the glorified perfected bodies?

Obviously, this is just a speculative thread, so thought I'd add these questions to the mix...

Some say God must desire sin or else he could have created us without the ability to sin, but I disagree for several reasons.

#1 God always does what is perfectly right, so obviously God could not make us without the ability to sin.

#2 Sin is necessary. This may be astounding to some, but this is what Jesus said.

Matt 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Jesus said offences (sins) MUST NEEDS BE. Sin is absolutely necessary. Why? Because of free will. In order to provide men free will to choose God, it is absolutely necessary that they also be able to rebel and sin against God. It is impossible to have love without choice.

God is love. It is his very nature. He cannot force himself upon us, he must allow us to have free will in order that we might freely choose him. But this same freedom makes it necessary that sin and rebellion is possible.

I do not agree with those that say God could have created man without the ability to sin. If man cannot sin, then he has no free will, no choice, and therefore cannot love God.
 

StefanM

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I dont understand, how is that an option if your born with original sin?

It's not, but if the fall had not occurred, then there would be no original sin.

Post-fall, atonement is the only way.
 

Alcott

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes; but only because God so decided. Otherwise, something would have greater authority than God.
 

Winman

Active Member
I dont understand, how is that an option if your born with original sin?

Have you ever considered that original sin might be error? The vast majority of early church fathers did not hold this doctrine until Augustine came along.

JUSTIN MARTYR c.100-165 A.D.
"But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand.

IRENAEUS of Gaul c.130-200. Against Heresies XXXVII

"This expression, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,' set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves . . ."

"If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God."

ATHENAGORAS of Athens (2nd century). Embassy for Christians XXIV

"Just as with men who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless), so is it among the angels"

THEOPHILUS of Antioch (2nd century). To Autolycus XXVII

"For God made man free, and with power over himself . . . now God vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death on himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting."



BARDAISAN of Syria c.154-222. Fragments

" 'How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation?'

if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him . . . And how, in that case, would a man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman . . . they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures."

CLEMENT of Alexandria c.150-215. Stromata Bk ii ch. 4

"But we, who have heard by the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men, rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life and believe God through His voice."


TERTULLIAN of Carthage c.155-225 Against Marcion Book II ch.5I

find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature . . .

-you will find that when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and by this on no other ground than that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.

. . . Since therefore, both the goodness and purpose of God are discovered in the gift to man of freedom in his will . . ."

NOVATIAN of Rome c.200-258. On the Trinity ch 1

"He also placed man at the head of the world, and man, too, made in the image of God, to whom He imparted mind, and reason, and foresight, that he might imitate God; and although the first elements of his body were earthly, yet the substance was inspired by a heavenly and divine breathing. And when He had given him all things for his service, He willed that he alone should be free. And lest, again, and unbounded freedom should fall into peril, He laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree; but he was forewarned that evil would arise if perchance he should exercise his freewill in contempt of the law that was given."

ORIGEN c.185-254. De Principiis Preface

"Now it ought to be known that the holy apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, delivered themselves with the utmost clearness on certain points which they believed to be necessary to everyone . . . This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition."

De principiis Bk 3 ch. 1

"There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will."

METHODIUS of Olympus c.260-martyred 311. The Banquet of the Ten Virgins xvi

"Now those who decide that man is not possessed of free-will, and affirm that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate . . . are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils."

Concerning Free-will

"I say that man was made with free-will, not as if there were already existing some evil, which he had the power of choosing if he wished . . . but that the power of obeying and disobeying God is the only cause."

ARCHELAUS The Disputation with Manes

"For all creatures that God made, He made very good, and He gave to every individual the sense of free-will in accordance with which standard He also instituted the law of judgment. To sin is ours, and that we sin not is God's gift, as our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin."



CYRIL of Jerusalem c. 312-386 Lecture IV
18: "Know also that thou hast a soul self governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator, immortal because of God that gives it immortality, a living being rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it willeth."

20: "There is not a class of souls sinning by nature and a class of souls practising righteousness by nature; but both act from choice, the substance of their souls being of one kind only and alike in all."

21: "The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator of necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature."

GREGORY of Nyssa c.335-395. On Virginity (368/3G8) ch. XII

"Being the image and the likeness . . . of the Power which rules all things, man kept also in the matter of a free-will this likeness to Him whose will is over all."

JEROME c.347-420. Letters CXXXIII

"It is in vain that you misrepresent me and try to convince the ignorant that I condemn free-will. Let him who condemns it be himself condemned. We have been created endowed with free-will; still it is not this which distinguishes us from the brutes. For human free-will, as I said, depends upon the help of God and needs His aid moment by moment, a thing which you and yours do not choose to admit. Your position is that once a man has free-will he no longer needs the help of God. It is true that freedom of the will brings with it freedom of decision."

So, as you see, many of the early church fathers believed man retained a free will and could freely choose to obey or disobey God. It was Augustine who left orthodoxy.
 
Top