Is the death penaly ok by God?

[LeBuick]

First, we would have to grant that the passage was authentically in the Gospel of John when originally written, which is disputed.

If not, we would have to grant that such an event did occur similar to as narrated. This is less disputed.

It's in my bible so I go with it.

It would demonstrate that Jesus Christ took His right as Lord and God in flesh to pardon this sin in this particular incident on the earth. The fact that both the woman and the man were not condemned together as lawful might have influenced His decision.

This does not cover the part regarding He that is without sin cast the first stone. There is a message for us there.

This specific event does not set aside Romans 13, which indicates capital punishment is "ordained" to civil government. It does not set aside Acts 25:11 noted by Sgt. Fury which suggests that there are crimes that merit execution.

I agree, it doesn't set anything aside but the Bible must not conflict with itself. In the Acts, Paul was standing at Caesar's judgment seat which is not a reflection of God's position on anything except we are to be obedient to governmental rule. This is the same concept as Rom 13. This means if the law of the land says the death penalty is valid then we should be obedient. Jesus was obedient when he went to the cross. Neither of these proves God is either in favor or against the death penalty, just that if man has the penalty then we should be in subjection.

There are clearly OT passages that are pro-death penalty. When we add John the question becomes who is worthy to be executioner.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The purpose of capital punishment is punishment, not deterrent.

I believe it is equally punishment and deterrent.

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. (KJV)

Achan's death sentence was certainly a deterrent to those who witnessed it.

 

[Darron Steele]

It's in my bible so I go with it.

This does not cover the part regarding He that is without sin cast the first stone. There is a message for us there.

I agree, it doesn't set anything aside but the Bible must not conflict with itself. In the Acts, Paul was standing at Caesar's judgment seat which is not a reflection of God's position on anything except we are to be obedient to governmental rule. This is the same concept as Rom 13. This means if the law of the land says the death penalty is valid then we should be obedient. Jesus was obedient when he went to the cross. Neither of these proves God is either in favor or against the death penalty, just that if man has the penalty then we should be in subjection.

There are clearly OT passages that are pro-death penalty. When we add John the question becomes who is worthy to be executioner.

The account now called "John 7:53-8:11" is not in many of the oldest manuscripts. I want to follow what was in the New Testament-era Christians' copies of the Gospel of John.

However, such a story was so widespread in antiquity that is unlikely that something like it did not occur.

The story does not address the matter of civil government. Romans 13 does. Jesus Christ can and will pardon with compassion -- that is the lesson for us.

He is Lord, and we are not. For mortals, civil government is ordained to maintain order in society, per Romans 13:1-7. We are not permitted to `forgivingly' let evil run unpunished among us.

Romans 13:1-7 does address civil government. Civil government is "ordained" to bear "the sword." It is not a matter of "worthy," but a matter of what God has "ordained" in this particular matter. To suggest that it is not Christ's way for civil governments to execute criminals is inconsistent with this passage. The passage strongly suggests civil governments are supposed to be administering capital punishment.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe it is equally punishment and deterrent.

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. (KJV)

Achan's death sentence was certainly a deterrent to those who witnessed it.

Indeed.

Think about the lake of fire - the saints witness it (In Rev 14 we are told that the wicked suffer IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and His Holy ones) and in Rev 20 the wicked surround the camp of the saints - then are burned in the lake of fire -- after the 1000 years.

What is the point of the saints witnessing this -- it is a deterrent.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

He is Lord, and we are not. For mortals, civil government is ordained to maintain order in society, per Romans 13:1-7. We are not permitted to `forgivingly' let evil run unpunished among us..

Correct, Rom 13 addresses civil government. Keep in mind, civil government is only necessary because all men won't obey God's law. God truly desires all men to obey His Word which would make civil law null and void. No evil will go unpunished; as BobRyan pointed out the day will come that time ends and all men will stand before the righteous judge who knows all including what is in the inner most parts of man. We shall all give an account.

As for "forgivingly' let evil run unpunished among us"

Forgiveness is the Christian banner. We are all sinners guilty of evil and sin yet as we are forgiven we are to forgive. I’m not implying we should do away with civil law however I am saying we shouldn’t use the Bible as its vindicator.

Mt 18:21 (KJV) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Mt 5:43 (KJV) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I think you've been sitting in Rev Wrights services cuz the God I serve seems to have a different perspective than yours. I can post many more scriptures on request…

 

[Darron Steele]

...
I think you've been sitting in Rev Wrights services cuz the God I serve seems to have a different perspective than yours. …

Excuse me? From what I have heard from "Rev" Wright, he believes the innocent ought to have died at the hands of murderers. If your model of `forgiving' crimes was implemented, your world would be much closer to his view than mine would be.

Was that little snide remark of yours a cover for your lack of Scriptural foundation for your opposition to capital punishment?

The God I serve does not want evil running unchecked in human society -- He ordained civil government to restrain evil with means up to and including "the sword." That is the God I read about in the Bible.

 

[LeBuick]

Excuse me? From what I have heard from "Rev" Wright, he believes the innocent ought to have died at the hands of murderers. If your model of `forgiving' crimes was implemented, your world would be much closer to his view than mine would be.

Was that little snide remark of yours a cover for your lack of Scriptural foundation for your opposition to capital punishment?

The God I serve does not want evil running unchecked in human society -- He ordained civil government to restrain evil with means up to and including "the sword." That is the God I read about in the Bible.

Naw, the snide remark was my attempt to lighten the atmosphere.

If you can read the bible and don't find forgiveness written all over its pages then it is not my scriptural foundation that is lacking. God went as far as to give his only begotten Son just to forgive man and I know I am no better than the repentant murderer on death row. I'm sorry if your book reads differently...

 

[Darron Steele]

Naw, the snide remark was my attempt to lighten the atmosphere.

Well, thanks. It was not taken that way.

If you can read the bible and don't find forgiveness written all over its pages then it is not my scriptural foundation that is lacking.

I agree with you on this.

However, I do not believe this means that we can disregard what God has "ordained" per Romans 13:1-7.

God went as far as to give his only begotten Son just to forgive man and I know I am no better than the repentant murderer on death row. ...

Nor am I. However, this is not about God's All-Knowing forgiveness for salvation, nor our forgiveness of sins against us, nor our personal worthiness. This is about God's ordinance of civil government and what he "ordained" it to do.

The written Word of God is still binding. God "ordained" a certain institution to do a certain task in His plan for earthly affairs. God "ordained" civil authority to restrain evil in human society. and He "ordained" civil government to use means up to and inclusive of "the sword" = capital punishment for crimes committed.

I do not believe I am in a position to second-guess God. `But God, this ordinance of yours seems inconsistent with your lessons on teh matter of forgiveness. I think we should disregard your ordinance.' I am not that bold; my attitude is `You say that is what you ordained, so that is how it ought to be. Period.'

 

[Palatka51]

I believe this woman was on death row. Let's see how Jesus handled it;

Jn 8:1 (KJV) Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

This may have been more of a judgment on the Scribes and Pharisees than on the woman as verse 7 indicates. Verse 8 hints at secret sins. This secret may have been that these men were involved with her adultery. I do not know that this is the case here but even the raping of a woman was the womans fault and you see this throughout the eastern world. Therefore Jesus who knows the hearts of men, had turned this sin onto whom the sin and its judgment applied to.

Please note that Jesus did not say there would not be any stones thrown here today. He redirected the accusations and thus made these men reconsider their actions.

He did not go into a dissertation with a parable explaining how to undermine the civil law concerning capitol punishment.

He forgave the woman because there was no sin that could be applied to her, verse 10, as her accusers did not wish to bring them up any longer. Therefore the judgment of stoning for adultery was not needed.

Also the fact that in John 3:17&18;
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We see that Jesus' purpose here was not to condemn (though He did the Pharisee). He was here to take the condemnation of our sin upon Himself to the cross.

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I'd have to say that Darron has presented just about as good a case as any I've seen on this subject. Well done, sir.

 

[Darron Steele]

I'd have to say that Darron has presented just about as good a case as any I've seen on this subject. Well done, sir.

Thank you. You were helpful.

 

[Palatka51]

Good observation. In fact, this passage points to the fact that civil government is "ordained" to carry and use "the sword." I think this teaches that civil governments SHOULD have the death penalty.

I never noticed this passage, and the lesson. Thank you.

You and Sgt Fury have presented good points. :thumbs:

 

[just-want-peace]

May have missed it on this thread, but forgiveness and consequences/punishment are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[LeBuick]

However, I do not believe this means that we can disregard what God has "ordained" per Romans 13:1-7.Nor am I. However, this is not about God's All-Knowing forgiveness for salvation, nor our forgiveness of sins against us, nor our personal worthiness. This is about God's ordinance of civil government and what he "ordained" it to do.

The written Word of God is still binding. God "ordained" a certain institution to do a certain task in His plan for earthly affairs. God "ordained" civil authority to restrain evil in human society. and He "ordained" civil government to use means up to and inclusive of "the sword" = capital punishment for crimes committed.

I do not believe I am in a position to second-guess God. `But God, this ordinance of yours seems inconsistent with your lessons on teh matter of forgiveness. I think we should disregard your ordinance.' I am not that bold; my attitude is `You say that is what you ordained, so that is how it ought to be. Period.'

Rom 13 does teach us to respect authority (Heb 13:17). I have no problem with that. This makes their job more absolute and brings order to an otherwise chaotic society. It also allows believers to co-exist peacefully with non-believers. It allows believers to work for a non-believing boss. All of these are good things. To say God has ordained all things civil government makes law is where I say you’re clearly wrong. IOW, God can and has ordained the institution of civil government but that doesn’t mean he approves of all decisions of civil government.

Before I expound, keep this in mind. The Roman Empire was mighty and not one to defy. Judaism was a “permitted” religion. This was the significance of Jesus being brought before Caesar with the accusation he said he is The King of the Jews. The Jews had previously been expelled from Rome in A.D. 19 by Emperor Tiberius (Josephus). Now they were allowed back into Rome and you have Jesus basically carving out a portion of the Roman Empire saying he is their King. I would inject here that God certainly didn’t ordain the expulsion of His chosen people but it get’s far deeper than that. This was the beauty of the response from Caesar which was, “I find no fault in Him”.

We also know of a second and more recent to this writings expulsion from Rome found in Acts 18:2.

Ac 18:2 (KJV) And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome) and came unto them.

Many of the Christian converts in Rome were Jews so much so that Christianity was really considered a “sect” of Judaism. This would have been the easy road to “fit in” just to claim to be a sect of the Jews but Paul put much effort teaching converted Jews that Christianity is not a “sect” or continuance of Judaism, we are Christians. Jesus Himself said you don’t put new wine in an old wineskin.

Christianity was new to the scene. It had yet to receive its governmental seal of approval. Consider the implications if a new minority religion were to come on the scene making waves against civil authority. So the issue being dealt with as we go into the 13th chapter is how do we fit in? How do we exist amongst this protected society? We are not satisfied with being considered a “sect” of the Jews so we can’t use their passport to acceptance because of our ancestry or heritage like the Jews. So in this 13 chapter Paul urges believers to be careful, be sensitive, be obedient, tip toe in their relationships with the governing authorities. He knew they would endure enough persecution without them bringing it on themselves by rebelling against the mighty Roman authorities. So conform as much as possible. Pay your taxes etc…

Now, back to my statement that God ordains civil authority is not that same as saying God approves of all decisions of civil government.

1. Civil government changes and God does not; One day slavery was ok but the next it was determined not ok. I know this analogy is overly simplistic but I am sure you can agree all civil government changes over time. God doesn’t change. What was sin yesterday is still sin today.
2. Civil government (especially our democratic society) is one of majority rule. If not, it is one of dictatorship with the likes of Hitler, Saddam Hussein etc… just in our time. Not only is God’s Will not always the “popular choice” he certainly hasn’t always ordained every nut case that assumed the mantel of leadership.

Ex… God gave us clear conditions for divorce but do we say the government makes it easier so I choose to abide by its rules instead of God’s?

So as Christians, even in the light of Rom 13, there is still a moral or “Godly” line that we can’t cross even under the encouragement or direction of civil government. You can’t go contrary to God’s word then turn around and say the government told me to do it. You know better and are held to a higher standard. This isn't second guessing God, it is living according to His word. The Hebrew boys and Daniel found that line with King Nebuchadnezzar and refused to cross it. We are challenged daily with these decisions as well and we need to refuse to cross.

Saying God has ordained civil government is to say he ordains all civil government does is to imply Man’s decisions from leadership positions are always in accordance with God’s will. We don’t have to go further than the Garden of Eden to know this isn’t a true statement. Let government handle the business of government but we are to forgive, turn the other cheek, love them that hate you and pray for them that despitefully use you. There is a Christian balance where we can be in this world but not conformed to this world.

Rom 13 is no blanket endorsement of every and any form of human government. In our world it is always about God's All-Knowing forgiveness for salvation and His forgiveness of sins against us.

Mk 11:25 (KJV) And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

In Brotherly Love,

Chuck

 

[Palatka51]

Saying God has ordained civil government is to say he ordains all civil government does is to imply Man’s decisions from leadership positions are always in accordance with God’s will. We don’t have to go further than the Garden of Eden to know this isn’t a true statement. Let government handle the business of government but we are to forgive, turn the other cheek, love them that hate you and pray for them that despitefully use you. There is a Christian balance where we can be in this world but not conformed to this world.

Rom 13 is no blanket endorsement of every and any form of human government. In our world it is always about God's All-Knowing forgiveness for salvation and His forgiveness of sins against us.

Mk 11:25 (KJV) And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

In Brotherly Love,

Chuck

Look Chuck,

If I were to walk up behind you and shoot you in cold blood. I would be taken by the Police and tried according to the laws of these United States. No amount of cries from my family on behalf of my life, nor of your family for forgiveness is going to get me off of death row for your cold blooded murder. This is what the State is ordain to do by God. Any other practiced action of Govt is outside the realm of God's ordination. God will remove it from power. He has done it over and over again and will do it again and again.

As far as Govt killing innocents intentionally, as in your post then Tiberius was eventually removed, Claudius was removed, Nero was removed, Napoleon was removed, King George III was removed, Hitler was removed, Stalin was removed, and Communist Soviet Russia was removed. God has them in His hands and if these United States do not get their act together regarding abortion God is going to recall the Angel over us and the US will be on the ash heap of history as well.

Furthermore there are probably many on death row that have taken Christ as their Savior. Yet They should still face their fate as was adjudicated by the magistrates of Godly govt. If you break a leg the Dr will set it and the healing can begin. You still endure pain and you might even bear a scare. My point is that the inmate might receive forgiveness and Christ having healed his heart and soul but he must still endure the consequences of his former life as a murderer.

 

[LeBuick]

Look Chuck,

If I were to walk up behind you and shoot you in cold blood. I would be taken by the Police and tried according to the laws of these United States. No amount of cries from my family on behalf of my life, nor of your family for forgiveness is going to get me off of death row for your cold blooded murder.

This is absolutely correct, you will be tried according to the laws of these United States. To add the Lord will be asking my wife and family to forgive and continue to love you. Pray for your soul etc... As I stated, Jesus accepted capital punishment and he did no crime and commited no sin.

This is what the State is ordain to do by God. Any other practiced action of Govt is outside the realm of God's ordination. God will remove it from power. He has done it over and over again and will do it again and again.

This is what I disagree with. God has nothing to do with what the state does. The state never sought God's Word or advice before it made it's laws so why should God need to put his Holy blessings on the actions of the government. Our government is steadily trying to seperate Church from State. You think it pisses God off to have the ten commandments in a federal building?

Many of governments over time have been Anti-Christian and you want to say Rom 13 means God ordained the decisions of these governments? Govenrments have been currupt. Was that God ordained? I think you are reading Rom 13 too literal and not in the light in which is was written. If you want to start another thread I would be glad to specifically discuss Rom 13 with you.

I know each of the leaders you mention were removed but the point still remains at one time they were leaders. And while they were leaders God didn't ordain all their actions yet we still needed to generally obey their authority according to Rom 13. God is not asking His people to be blindly lead on a path of iniquity.

Ex 21:24 (KJV) Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

This and many other OT scriptures would be far better support for God's position on the death penalty. These are the laws of a civil government ordained by God. A revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

As for me, I am neutral regarding the death penalty. This land happens to support it but other lands don't. I could live at peace in either place. I think it's a far worse punishment to make a man live life in prison with the guilt of his actions than to relieve him by death but that is my view and has nothing to do with God.