Is the Doctrine of Original Sin Biblical?

[Zaatar71]

He uses much scripture
More from Hodge vol.2-
Proof of the Doctrine of Original Sin.

First Argument from the Universality of Sin.

The first argument in proof of this doctrine is drawn from the universal sinfulness of men. All men are sinners. This is undeniably the doctrine of the Scriptures. It is asserted, assumed, and proved. The assertions of this fact are too numerous to be quoted. In 1 Kings viii. 46, it is said, “There is no man that sinneth not.” Eccl. vii. 20, “There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Is. liii. 6, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way.” lxiv. 6, “We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” Ps. cxxx. 3, “If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” Ps. cxliii. 2, “In thy sight shall no man living 232be justified.” Rom. iii. 19, “The whole world (πᾶς ὁ κόσμος) is guilty before God.” Verses 22, 23, “There is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Gal. iii. 22, “The Scripture hath concluded all under sin;” i.e., hath declared all men to be under the power and condemnation of sin. James iii. 2, “In many things we offend all.” 1 John i. 8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Verse 10, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John v. 19, “The whole world lieth in wickedness.” Such are only a few of the assertions of the universal sinfulness of men with which the Scriptures abound.
6. It need scarcely be added, that what the Scriptures so manifestly teach indirectly of the depth of the corruption of our fallen nature, they teach also by direct assertion. The human heart is pronounced deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Even in the beginning (Gen. vi. 5, 6), it was said, “God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Job xv. 14-16, “What is man, that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water.” Eccl. ix. 3, “The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” With such passages the Word of God is filled. It in the most explicit terms pronounces the degradation and moral corruption of man consequent on the fall, to be a total apostasy from God; a state of spiritual death, as implying the entire absence of any true holiness.

A third great fact of Scripture and experience on this subject is the early manifestation of sin. As soon as a child is capable of moral action, it gives evidence of a perverted moral character. We not only see the manifestations of anger, malice, selfishness, envy, pride, and other evil dispositions, but the whole development of the soul is toward the world. The soul of a child turns by an inward law from God to the creature, from the things that are unseen and eternal to the things that are seen and temporal. It is in its earliest manifestations, worldly, of the earth, earthy. As this is the testimony of universal experience, so also it is the doctrine of the Bible. Job xi. 12, “Man” is “born like a wild ass’s colt.” Ps. lviii. 3, “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” Prov. xxii. 15, “Foolishness (moral evil) is bound in the heart of a child.”

Ben, as per your request , here is more scripture from Hodge vol.2
The Scriptures expressly Teach the Doctrine.

The Scriptures not only indirectly teach the doctrine of original sin, or of the hereditary, sinful corruption of our nature as derived from Adam, by teaching, as we have seen, the universal and total depravity of our race, but they directly assert the doctrine. They not only teach expressly that men sin universally and from the first dawn of their being, but they also assert that the heart of man is evil. It is declared to be “Deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?” (Jer. xvii. 9.) “The heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.” (Eccl. viii. 11.) Every imagination of the thoughts of his (man’s) heart is only evil.” (Gen. vi. 5); or as it is in Gen. viii. 21, “The imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” By heart in Scriptural language is meant the man himself; the soul; that which is the seat and source of life. It is that which thinks, feels, desires, and wills. It is that out of which good or evil thoughts, desires, and purposes proceed. It never signifies a mere act, or a transient state of the soul. It is that which is abiding, which determines character. It bears the same relation to acts that the soil does to its productions. As a good soil brings forth herbs suited for man and beast, and an evil soil brings forth briars and thorns, so we are told that the human heart (human nature in its present state), is proved to be evil by the prolific crop of sins which it everywhere and always produces. Still more distinctly is this doctrine taught in Matt. vii. 16-19, where our Lord says that men are known by their fruits. “Do men gather grapes or thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth 241good fruit.” And again, in Matt. xii. 33, “Either make the tree good and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” The very pith and point of these instructions is, that moral acts are a revelation of moral character. They do not constitute it, but simply manifest what it is. The fruit of a tree reveals the nature of the tree. It does not make that nature, but simply proves what it is. So in the case of man, his moral exercises, his thoughts and feelings, as well as his external acts, are determined by an internal cause. There is something in the nature of the man distinct from his acts and anterior to them, which determines his conduct (i.e., all his conscious exercises), to be either good or evil. If men are universally sinful, it is, according to our Lord’s doctrine, proof positive that their nature is evil; as much so as corrupt fruit proves the tree to be corrupt. When therefore the Scriptures assert that the heart of man is “desperately wicked,” they assert precisely what the Church means when she asserts our nature to be depraved. Neither the word, heart, nor nature, in such connections means substance or essence, but natural disposition. The words express a quality as distinguished from an essential attribute or property. Even when we speak of the nature of a tree, we do not mean its essence, but its quality; something which can be modified or changed without a change of substance. Thus our Lord speaks of making a tree good, or making it evil. The explanation of the Scriptural meaning of the word heart given above is confirmed by analogous and synonymous forums of expression used in the Bible. What is sometimes designated as an evil heart is called “the old man,” “a law of sin in our members,” “the flesh,” “the carnal mind,” etc. And on the other hand, what is called “a new heart,” is called “the new man,” “a new creature” (or nature), “the law of the Spirit,” “the spiritual mind,” etc. All these terms and phrases designate what is inherent, immanent, and abiding, as opposed to what is transient and voluntary. The former class of terms is used to describe the nature of man before it is regenerated, and the other to describe the change consequent on regeneration. The Scriptures, therefore, in declaring the heart of man to be deceitful and desperately wicked, and its imaginations or exercises to be only evil continually, assert in direct terms the Church doctrine of original sin.

 

[Zaatar71]

Ben here is more for you;
The Psalmist also directly asserts this doctrine when he says (Ps. li. 5), “Behold I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” In the preceding verses he had confessed 242his actual sins; and he here humbles himself still more completely before God by acknowledging his innate, hereditary depravity; a depravity which he did not regard as a mere weakness, or inclination to evil, but which he pronounces iniquity and sin. To this inherent, hereditary corruption he refers in the subsequent parts of the Psalm as his chief burden from which he most earnestly desired to be delivered. “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part shalt thou make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . . . Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.” It was his inward parts, his interior nature, which had been shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin, which he prayed might be purified and renewed. The whole spirit of this Psalm and the connection in which the words of the fifth verse occur, have constrained the great majority of commentators and readers of the Scripture to recognize in this passage a direct affirmation of the doctrine of original sin. Of course no doctrine rests on any one isolated passage. What is taught in one place is sure to be assumed or asserted in other places. What David says of himself as born in sin is confirmed by other representations of Scripture, which show that what was true of him is no less true of all mankind. Thus (Job xiv. 4), “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean.” (xv. 14), “What is man that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?” Thus also our Lord says (John iii. 6), “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” This clearly means that, That which is born of corrupt parents is itself corrupt; and is corrupt in virtue of its descent or derivation. This is plain, (1.) From the common usage of the word flesh in a religious sense in the Scriptures. Besides the primary and secondary meanings of the word it is familiarly used in the Bible to designate our fallen and corrupt nature. Hence to be “in the flesh” is to be in a natural, unrenewed state; the works of the flesh, are works springing from a corrupt nature; to walk after the flesh, is to live under the controlling influence of a sinful nature. Hence to be carnal, or carnally minded, is to be corrupt, or, as Paul explains it, sold under, a slave to sin. (2.) Because the flesh is here opposed to the Spirit. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” As the latter member of this verse undoubtedly means that, That which is derived from the Holy Spirit is holy, or conformed to the nature of the Holy Spirit; the former member must mean that, That which is 243derived from an evil source is itself evil. A child born of fallen parents derives from them a fallen, corrupt nature. (3.) This interpretation is demanded by the context. Our Lord is assigning the reason for the necessity of regeneration or spiritual birth. That reason is, the derivation of a corrupt nature by our natural birth. It is because we are born in sin that the renewing of the Holy Ghost is universally and absolutely necessary to our salvation.

Another passage equally decisive is Eph. ii. 3: “We also” (i.e., we Jews as well as the Gentiles) “were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” Children of wrath, according to a familiar Hebrew idiom, means the objects of wrath. We, says the Apostle, as well as other men, are the objects of the divine wrath. That is, under condemnation, justly exposed to his displeasure. This exposure to the wrath of God, as He teaches, is not due exclusively to our sinful conduct, it is the condition in which we were born. We are by nature the children of wrath. The word nature in such forms of speech always stands opposed to what is acquired, or superinduced, or to what is due to ab extra influence or inward development. Paul says that he and Peter were by nature Jews, i.e., they were Jews by birth, not by proselytism. He says the Gentiles do by nature the things of the law; i.e., in virtue of their internal constitution, not by external instruction. The gods of the heathen, he says, are by nature no gods. They are such only in the opinions of men. In classic literature as in ordinary language, to say that men are by nature proud, or cruel, or just, always means that the predicate is due to them in virtue of their natural constitution or condition, and not simply on account of their conduct or acquired character. The dative φύσει in this passage does not mean on account of, because φύσις means simply nature, whether good or bad. Paul does not say directly that it is “on account of our (corrupt) nature we are the children of wrath,” which interpretation requires the idea expressed by the word corrupt to be introduced into the text. He simply asserts that we are the children of wrath by nature; that is, as we were born. We are born in a state of sin and condemnation. And this is the Church doctrine of original sin. Our natural condition is not merely a condition of physical weakness, or of proneness to sin, or of subjection to evil dispositions, which, if cherished, become sinful; but we are born in a state of sin. Rueckert, a rationalistic commentator, says in reference to this passage:241 “It is perfectly evident, from Rom. v. 12-20, that Paul was far from being opposed to the 244view expressed in Ps. li. 7, that men are born sinners; and as we interpret for no system, so we will not attempt to deny that the thought, ‘We were born children of wrath,’ i.e.. such as we were from our birth we were exposed to the divine wrath, is the true sense of these words.”

The Bible Represents Men as Spiritually Dead.

 

[Ben1445]

He uses much scripture
More from Hodge vol.2-
Proof of the Doctrine of Original Sin.

First Argument from the Universality of Sin.

The first argument in proof of this doctrine is drawn from the universal sinfulness of men. All men are sinners. This is undeniably the doctrine of the Scriptures. It is asserted, assumed, and proved. The assertions of this fact are too numerous to be quoted. In 1 Kings viii. 46, it is said, “There is no man that sinneth not.” Eccl. vii. 20, “There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Is. liii. 6, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way.” lxiv. 6, “We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” Ps. cxxx. 3, “If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” Ps. cxliii. 2, “In thy sight shall no man living 232be justified.” Rom. iii. 19, “The whole world (πᾶς ὁ κόσμος) is guilty before God.” Verses 22, 23, “There is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Gal. iii. 22, “The Scripture hath concluded all under sin;” i.e., hath declared all men to be under the power and condemnation of sin. James iii. 2, “In many things we offend all.” 1 John i. 8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Verse 10, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John v. 19, “The whole world lieth in wickedness.” Such are only a few of the assertions of the universal sinfulness of men with which the Scriptures abound.
6. It need scarcely be added, that what the Scriptures so manifestly teach indirectly of the depth of the corruption of our fallen nature, they teach also by direct assertion. The human heart is pronounced deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Even in the beginning (Gen. vi. 5, 6), it was said, “God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Job xv. 14-16, “What is man, that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water.” Eccl. ix. 3, “The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” With such passages the Word of God is filled. It in the most explicit terms pronounces the degradation and moral corruption of man consequent on the fall, to be a total apostasy from God; a state of spiritual death, as implying the entire absence of any true holiness.

A third great fact of Scripture and experience on this subject is the early manifestation of sin. As soon as a child is capable of moral action, it gives evidence of a perverted moral character. We not only see the manifestations of anger, malice, selfishness, envy, pride, and other evil dispositions, but the whole development of the soul is toward the world. The soul of a child turns by an inward law from God to the creature, from the things that are unseen and eternal to the things that are seen and temporal. It is in its earliest manifestations, worldly, of the earth, earthy. As this is the testimony of universal experience, so also it is the doctrine of the Bible. Job xi. 12, “Man” is “born like a wild ass’s colt.” Ps. lviii. 3, “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” Prov. xxii. 15, “Foolishness (moral evil) is bound in the heart of a child.”

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Emphasis mine.
And there goes limited atonement. According to the original sin preferred definition.
No one denies that man is a sinner no one denies that man needs Jesus to come to the Father.
But some people still deny that God gives the ability to all.

 

[Zaatar71]

Which quote were you referring to as he made more than one.

I note that you quote a number of man-made texts. But what you fail to realize is that those are written from a certain theological view. They read into the text what they want to see.

Hello Silverhair,
God has revealed Himself to us in the scriptures, and has given to the local churches pastors and teachers for us.
Pastors and teachers are men, yes.
God has them preach and teach...agreed
That indicates there are disciples or students to be instructed, that would be us...agree?

 

[JD731]

@ Ben 1445, I stated this in the last 2 threads I commented on but I will do it again here. In Romans 5, after Paul has divided time into 3 different frames, the last being the one we are living in now, he said sin is the transgression of the law. Then he said without the law there is no transgression. He said that to make the point that the division of time where there was no law from God to man, only the knowledge of good and evil through the conscience, stating that where there is no law there is no transgression. However, he said that all men die.

Time out here for this. God does not have two explanations of sin and how he charges men with sin. Here is the only one and it is all on the individual;

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
See Re 2011, the great white throne where unsaved men are judge according to their works.

The three divisions of time follows with Paul saying from Adam to Moses, from Moses to Jesus, from Jesus on til now. He is trying to teach us that death passes from Adam to all his offspring whether there is law or not. Adam to Moses is before the law. One can read the scriptures to check for the first law after the sin of Adam in the garden. Moses to Jesus records men under the law, and from Jesus is men sinning after the law. It does not matter what principle of divine dealing with men is in place, death passes upon all men.

From the passage in James we learn that sin is a threefold process that culminates in an action done in the body. It takes knowledge, reason and will acting together to sin against God. Innocent children cannot sin until they reach this level of maturity. Nevertheless, they sometimes die, not because sin has passed on them but death has passed on them. There is a reason death passes on all including those who are not charged with a transgression of the law. The reason is because all of Adam's offspring is born IN HIS IMAGE (comp Ge 5:1 & Ge 5:3 and v 3 is not in the likeness of God). They are body and soul. Jesus Christ, the son of God, was born of the seed of the woman, not Adam, and is in the image of God, body, soul, and Spirit, a trinity with the Spirit being the divine person of God and the power of an endless life without sin.

Jn 1:4 In him (the Word) was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

So what does the born again experience do for us besides making us a son of God. It charges our image from that of Adam to that of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (through a second birth -see Col 1:18 & Rom 1:1 -7) that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (that would be Adam), we (the church the body of Christ) shall also bear the image of the heavenly (that would be Jesus).

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

How? By the Spirit of the Lord who will never leave us nor forsake us.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

What image is that?

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (nobody, especially people who post here do not really believe that statement. They do not believe the physical resurrection of Jesus was a birth when the Spirit raised his body from the dead by entering into it giving it life, but I do)

Here it is;

Hebrews 1:3
Who (Jesus) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his God's) person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ when we trust in his sinless sacrifice of himself for us and he gives us the gift of his own righteousness, which is his Spirit. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I am preaching Jesus Christ, the only one who can take away our sin and give us eternal life and is willing to if we will believe God's testimony about him.

 

[Silverhair]

It looks like Reynolds quote is very solidly biblical, what do you understand about what he quoted to be mistaken?

Since your quote referred to original sin I will address that point

God devoted an entire chapter of the Bible to refuting the C/R interpretation of original sin. Eze_18:1-32. You can read the whole chapter but I’ll just quote the one verse.

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

The entire chapter points out the error of the C/R view. I recommend you read it.

 

[Ben1445]

Ben here is more for you;
The Psalmist also directly asserts this doctrine when he says (Ps. li. 5), “Behold I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” In the preceding verses he had confessed 242his actual sins; and he here humbles himself still more completely before God by acknowledging his innate, hereditary depravity; a depravity which he did not regard as a mere weakness, or inclination to evil, but which he pronounces iniquity and sin. To this inherent, hereditary corruption he refers in the subsequent parts of the Psalm as his chief burden from which he most earnestly desired to be delivered. “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part shalt thou make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. . . . . Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.” It was his inward parts, his interior nature, which had been shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin, which he prayed might be purified and renewed. The whole spirit of this Psalm and the connection in which the words of the fifth verse occur, have constrained the great majority of commentators and readers of the Scripture to recognize in this passage a direct affirmation of the doctrine of original sin. Of course no doctrine rests on any one isolated passage. What is taught in one place is sure to be assumed or asserted in other places. What David says of himself as born in sin is confirmed by other representations of Scripture, which show that what was true of him is no less true of all mankind. Thus (Job xiv. 4), “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean.” (xv. 14), “What is man that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?” Thus also our Lord says (John iii. 6), “That which is born of the flesh is flesh.” This clearly means that, That which is born of corrupt parents is itself corrupt; and is corrupt in virtue of its descent or derivation. This is plain, (1.) From the common usage of the word flesh in a religious sense in the Scriptures. Besides the primary and secondary meanings of the word it is familiarly used in the Bible to designate our fallen and corrupt nature. Hence to be “in the flesh” is to be in a natural, unrenewed state; the works of the flesh, are works springing from a corrupt nature; to walk after the flesh, is to live under the controlling influence of a sinful nature. Hence to be carnal, or carnally minded, is to be corrupt, or, as Paul explains it, sold under, a slave to sin. (2.) Because the flesh is here opposed to the Spirit. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” As the latter member of this verse undoubtedly means that, That which is derived from the Holy Spirit is holy, or conformed to the nature of the Holy Spirit; the former member must mean that, That which is 243derived from an evil source is itself evil. A child born of fallen parents derives from them a fallen, corrupt nature. (3.) This interpretation is demanded by the context. Our Lord is assigning the reason for the necessity of regeneration or spiritual birth. That reason is, the derivation of a corrupt nature by our natural birth. It is because we are born in sin that the renewing of the Holy Ghost is universally and absolutely necessary to our salvation.

Another passage equally decisive is Eph. ii. 3: “We also” (i.e., we Jews as well as the Gentiles) “were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” Children of wrath, according to a familiar Hebrew idiom, means the objects of wrath. We, says the Apostle, as well as other men, are the objects of the divine wrath. That is, under condemnation, justly exposed to his displeasure. This exposure to the wrath of God, as He teaches, is not due exclusively to our sinful conduct, it is the condition in which we were born. We are by nature the children of wrath. The word nature in such forms of speech always stands opposed to what is acquired, or superinduced, or to what is due to ab extra influence or inward development. Paul says that he and Peter were by nature Jews, i.e., they were Jews by birth, not by proselytism. He says the Gentiles do by nature the things of the law; i.e., in virtue of their internal constitution, not by external instruction. The gods of the heathen, he says, are by nature no gods. They are such only in the opinions of men. In classic literature as in ordinary language, to say that men are by nature proud, or cruel, or just, always means that the predicate is due to them in virtue of their natural constitution or condition, and not simply on account of their conduct or acquired character. The dative φύσει in this passage does not mean on account of, because φύσις means simply nature, whether good or bad. Paul does not say directly that it is “on account of our (corrupt) nature we are the children of wrath,” which interpretation requires the idea expressed by the word corrupt to be introduced into the text. He simply asserts that we are the children of wrath by nature; that is, as we were born. We are born in a state of sin and condemnation. And this is the Church doctrine of original sin. Our natural condition is not merely a condition of physical weakness, or of proneness to sin, or of subjection to evil dispositions, which, if cherished, become sinful; but we are born in a state of sin. Rueckert, a rationalistic commentator, says in reference to this passage:241 “It is perfectly evident, from Rom. v. 12-20, that Paul was far from being opposed to the 244view expressed in Ps. li. 7, that men are born sinners; and as we interpret for no system, so we will not attempt to deny that the thought, ‘We were born children of wrath,’ i.e.. such as we were from our birth we were exposed to the divine wrath, is the true sense of these words.”

The Bible Represents Men as Spiritually Dead.

But it seems we can agree only so far in Scripture. When you begin to say that God has not revealed Himself to all men and that only the men He has revealed Himself to can be saved- as you cram all these thoughts together, I don’t find them to be Scriptural and hence they are not accurate.

 

[Zaatar71]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Emphasis mine.
And there goes limited atonement. According to the original sin preferred definition.
No one denies that man is a sinner no one denies that man needs Jesus to come to the Father.
But some people still deny that God gives the ability to all.

Hello Ben,
Are you suggesting that all men are going to be saved in a universal way? I see you bolded a part of the verse, but can I ask you,what about this part of the verse; but is longsuffering to us-ward
Keep in mind who this was written to;
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Do you think there might be a correlation working down from verse ! to the To-usward?

 

[Zaatar71]

Since your quote referred to original sin I will address that point

God devoted an entire chapter of the Bible to refuting the C/R interpretation of original sin. Eze_18:1-32. You can read the whole chapter but I’ll just quote the one verse.

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

The entire chapter points out the error of the C/R view. I recommend you read it.

1] what is the c/r view / I am not sure what you mean by that.?

2] Ezk 18 is speaking about sins we commit. fathers ,sons, and all people since the original sin of Adam. Do you agree thatezk 18 does not come before genesis 3?

 

[Ben1445]

@ Ben 1445, I stated this in the last 2 threads I commented on but I will do it again here. In Romans 5, after Paul has divided time into 3 different frames, the last being the one we are living in now, he said sin is the transgression of the law. Then he said without the law there is no transgression. He said that to make the point that the division of time where there was no law from God to man, only the knowledge of good and evil through the conscience, stating that where there is no law there is no transgression. However, he said that all men die.

Time out here for this. God does not have two explanations of sin and how he charges men with sin. Here is the only one and it is all on the individual;

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
See Re 2011, the great white throne where unsaved men are judge according to their works.

The three divisions of time follows with Paul saying from Adam to Moses, from Moses to Jesus, from Jesus on til now. He is trying to teach us that death passes from Adam to all his offspring whether there is law or not. Adam to Moses is before the law. One can read the scriptures to check for the first law after the sin of Adam in the garden. Moses to Jesus records men under the law, and from Jesus is men sinning after the law. It does not matter what principle of divine dealing with men is in place, death passes upon all men.

From the passage in James we learn that sin is a threefold process that culminates in an action done in the body. It takes knowledge, reason and will acting together to sin against God. Innocent children cannot sin until they reach this level of maturity. Nevertheless, they sometimes die, not because sin has passed on them but death has passed on them. There is a reason death passes on all including those who are not charged with a transgression of the law. The reason is because all of Adam's offspring is born IN HIS IMAGE (comp Ge 5:1 & Ge 5:3 and v 3 is not in the likeness of God). They are body and soul. Jesus Christ, the son of God, was born of the seed of the woman, not Adam, and is in the image of God, body, soul, and Spirit, a trinity with the Spirit being the divine person of God and the power of an endless life without sin.

Jn 1:4 In him (the Word) was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

So what does the born again experience do for us besides making us a son of God. It charges our image from that of Adam to that of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, (through a second birth -see Col 1:18 & Rom 1:1 -7) that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy (that would be Adam), we (the church the body of Christ) shall also bear the image of the heavenly (that would be Jesus).

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

How? By the Spirit of the Lord who will never leave us nor forsake us.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

What image is that?

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (nobody, especially people who post here do not really believe that statement. They do not believe the physical resurrection of Jesus was a birth when the Spirit raised his body from the dead by entering into it giving it life, but I do)

Here it is;

Hebrews 1:3
Who (Jesus) being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his God's) person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ when we trust in his sinless sacrifice of himself for us and he gives us the gift of his own righteousness, which is his Spirit. Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I am preaching Jesus Christ, the only one who can take away our sin and give us eternal life and is willing to if we will believe God's testimony about him.

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If many is all in the beginning of the verse it will be at the end. The point that is being made is that sin affects every person. So does the gift.
Sin is not a gift. You have it like it or don’t.
The grace of God is a gift and you can reject it.
But that doesn’t change its efficacy. Only its application.

 

[Zaatar71]

But it seems we can agree only so far in Scripture. When you begin to say that God has not revealed Himself to all men and that only the men He has revealed Himself to can be saved- as you cram all these thoughts together, I don’t find them to be Scriptural and hence they are not accurate.

Romans 1 says all men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men in General revelation by two witnesses...Creation, and conscience.
This tells men that there is a God.
These two witnesses while very strong, do not reveal all the other details that we have revealed in scripture about the original sin, and death, the incarnation , the cross, etc. This revelation only comes by Special revelation...do you agree on this Ben?

 

[37818]

The non elect can't get from A to B at all.

• John 6:44,65 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

One is not elect until one gets A to B first.

 

[Silverhair]

Hello Silverhair,
God has revealed Himself to us in the scriptures, and has given to the local churches pastors and teachers for us.
Pastors and teachers are men, yes.
God has them preach and teach...agreed
That indicates there are disciples or students to be instructed, that would be us...agree?

We are also told to be like the Bereans and to study the bible for ourselves. While I will use various commentaries and books to add to what I understand from the word of God I do not use them instead of the bible.

We know that many false teaching have come from man

 

[Ben1445]

Hello Ben,
Are you suggesting that all men are going to be saved in a universal way? I see you bolded a part of the verse, but can I ask you,what about this part of the verse; but is longsuffering to us-ward
Keep in mind who this was written to;
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Do you think there might be a correlation working down from verse ! to the To-usward?

Yes. I am pretty sure context has a lot to do with it. So I doubt very much that the destruction spoken of in the following verse is intended to include believers since it is salvation that is being discussed. Since there are unbelievers in the same thought whose destruction is being discussed, I don’t find it out of context to say that the all coming to repentance includes all the people who are condemned because they have not believed on the Son.

 

[Ben1445]

Romans 1 says all men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself to all men in General revelation by two witnesses...Creation, and conscience.
This tells men that there is a God.
These two witnesses while very strong, do not reveal all the other details that we have revealed in scripture about the original sin, and death, the incarnation , the cross, etc. This revelation only comes by Special revelation...do you agree on this Ben?

Not as you say it. If I was not able to be saved because God would not reveal Himself to me in such a way that I could find Him, that would be my excuse. It is a pretty good one. I couldn’t come because You wouldn’t let me.
Romans says all are without excuse. That tells me that the way God has revealed Himself is sufficient to draw all men to Himself. But when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God.

 

[Zaatar71]

We are also told to be like the Bereans and to study the bible for ourselves. While I will use various commentaries and books to add to what I understand from the word of God I do not use them instead of the bible.

I agree with you on this Silverhair, and thank you for that good reminder!

We know that many false teaching have come from man

Well yes, I agree with this caution also. There are cults, and Catholics, and demonic sources like Islam. We cannot let our guard down.
But that does not negate true God given teachers, pastors missionaries does it?

 

[Silverhair]

1] what is the c/r view / I am not sure what you mean by that.?

2] Ezk 18 is speaking about sins we commit. fathers ,sons, and all people since the original sin of Adam. Do you agree thatezk 18 does not come before genesis 3?

C/R Calvinist/Reformed

All sin but we are responsible for our own sins

Do you not understand that we are given more information as time goes on.

Gen tells that all sin, Eze expands on that and tells us we are not responsible for the sins of others.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with you on this Silverhair, and thank you for that good reminder!

Well yes, I agree with this caution also. There are cults, and Catholics, and demonic sources like Islam. We cannot let our guard down.
But that does not negate true God given teachers, pastors missionaries does it?

But we are still to check what they say to see if it is in line with scripture.

We know there are respected teachers that have put forth questionable views. Views that they see in scripture by miss reading the text or changing the meaning of words.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes. I am pretty sure context has a lot to do with it.

Glad we can agree in part.

So I doubt very much that the destruction spoken of in the following verse is intended to include believers since it is salvation that is being discussed.

Okay, we can agree here also

Since there are unbelievers in the same thought whose destruction is being discussed,

If you follow the chapter from verse 1 , both are being discussed, the believers and the scoffers

I don’t find it out of context to say that the all coming to repentance includes all the people who are condemned because they have not believed on the Son.

Ben, Eph 2 tells us that we were all Children of wrath, before we were saved right?
So yes, the part you bolded was speaking of those God was going to save after peter writes this. God has a plan, he saves His sheep worldwide, throughout time...Agree?

 

[Zaatar71]

C/R Calvinist/Reformed

Thank you for explaining the C/R. What do you understand that to mean?

All sin but we are responsible for our own sins

We sin,agreed.
We are responsible for our own sins, yes for sure.
The question seems to be....why do we all sin?

Do you not understand that we are given more information as time goes on.

I agree that after the fall into sin and death, we are given much more information on it as time goes on, yes I agree with you on this, as long as you mean within the pages of the bible.

Gen tells that all sin, Eze expands on that and tells us we are not responsible for the sins of others.

Romans 3:23 says that All sinned. Romans 5 says sin and death entered with Adam. Adam was the first man to sin...Satan sinned , but he is not a man, right. So Adam passed on our sin nature to all mankind.