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Is the Doctrine of Original Sin Biblical?

Zaatar71

Member
But we are still to check what they say to see if it is in line with scripture.
Yes we are ,I agree with you on this.
We know there are respected teachers that have put forth questionable views.
No one man is always right, I agree on this. That is why we are to be as the Bereans, yes.
Now we know that sometimes teachers we follow are not always correct. That also tells us, we might be the ones who are wrong!
I found this section by the teacher Charles Hodge. He seems to be a gifted person. If you are going to disagree with him, can you identify what he says, that you feel he has errored on. That would be helpful. Get specific and it will help us all to weigh it out.
Views that they see in scripture by miss reading the text or changing the meaning of words.
But we are still to check what they say to see if it is in line with scripture.
Yes we are ,I agree with you on this.
We know there are respected teachers that have put forth questionable views.
No one man is always right, I agree on this. That is why we are to be as the Bereans, yes.
Now we know that sometimes teachers we follow are not always correct. That also tells us, we might be the ones who are wrong!
I found this section by the teacher Charles Hodge. He seems to be a gifted person. If you are going to disagree with him, can you identify what he says, that you feel he has errored on. That would be helpful. Get specific and it will help us all to weigh it out.
Views that they see in scripture by miss reading the text or changing the meaning of words.
Yes, that can happen. But the same could be said of us right? let's say in this case Charles Hodge has spoken correctly. Is it possible you are the one who is straying a bit?
 

Ben1445

Member
Glad we can agree in part.

Okay, we can agree here also

If you follow the chapter from verse 1 , both are being discussed, the believers and the scoffers

Ben, Eph 2 tells us that we were all Children of wrath, before we were saved right?
So yes, the part you bolded was speaking of those God was going to save after peter writes this. God has a plan, he saves His sheep worldwide, throughout time...Agree?
We can agree on some of that but God is not willing that any should perish.
It is the things that you leave out and the handles that you plant that I cannot affirm.
 

Zaatar71

Member
We can agree on some of that but God is not willing that any should perish.
Ben, If we read about men that are cast into the second death/lake of fire would it be safe to say that God does will that many of the world of the ungodly do perish? the flood of Noah's day seems to indicate that God was willing that many of mankind perished, do you agree. It looks as if two groups are spoken of...believer and unbeliever, agreed?
It is the things that you leave out and the handles that you plant that I cannot affirm.
well glad we do agree on some things
 

37818

Well-Known Member
One is elect before the foundations of creation.
The word of God nowhere teaches that the election is before the foundation of the world.

There is a choosing before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, . . .

See Mark 13:20. Elect after that choosing.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Thank you for explaining the C/R. What do you understand that to mean?
Just what those that hold to the view have said it means. DoG or TULIP, Detreminism, elect B4 creation etc. All just man-made theories that they have put forward.
We sin,agreed.
We are responsible for our own sins, yes for sure.
The question seems to be....why do we all sin?
Because we sin. We want to do it our way not God's way, which is sin.
I agree that after the fall into sin and death, we are given much more information on it as time goes on, yes I agree with you on this, as long as you mean within the pages of the bible.
That is why I keep pointing people back to scripture.
Romans 3:23 says that All sinned. Romans 5 says sin and death entered with Adam. Adam was the first man to sin...Satan sinned , but he is not a man, right. So Adam passed on our sin nature to all mankind.

Yes our nature is to sin but we are not responsible for or held guilty because of Adams sin as C/R seem to think.

There is a vast difference between "sinning in Adam" and being responsible for our own sin.
 

Zaatar71

Member
Just what those that hold to the view have said it means. DoG or TULIP, Detreminism, elect B4 creation etc. All just man-made theories that they have put forward.

Because we sin. We want to do it our way not God's way, which is sin.

That is why I keep pointing people back to scripture.


Yes our nature is to sin but we are not responsible for or held guilty because of Adams sin as C/R seem to think.

There is a vast difference between "sinning in Adam" and being responsible for our own sin.
Thanks for your response Silverhair!
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
It might say all that on theopedia and people might affirm it, that doesn’t make it true.
What Scripture does teach is that God has been reaching out to every individual sinner as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. As such, there are no people in existence that are powerless to rehabilitate. God has given all His power through salvation He offers. If you have to have a group of individuals who cannot be saved, content yourself with the angels that fell.
The problem with the definition given is what is left out. This is a terrible definition and leads people to affirm something they may not believe in because of their lack of familiarity with the subject.
Jesus stated that he came just for His own, His own sheep, and only they shall be able to hear and follow Him, so not the Good Shephard of the all, but of the many
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I suppose we should sort out definitions first.
When I hear someone say “doctrine of original sin,” I assume they mean what most writers on the subject are talking about.
What that means to me is that there are writers, John Calvin for example, who believe that all people have “original sin” that needs to be atoned for. Calvin looked to baptism for his regeneration, (see his institutes on Baptism where he says “We ought to consider that at whatever time we are baptised, we are washed and purified once for the whole of life. Wherefore, as often as we fall, we must recall the remembrance of our baptism, and thus fortify our minds, so as to feel certain and secure of the remission of sins.”
There is an idea that the original sin is atoned for when people are made ready to receive salvation and their own sins atoned for when they are themselves saved and believe.
I acknowledge your correction and I do think that, as it is clearly stated in Jesus teachings, the devil is the original sinner.
I don’t add that thought in to say that that is anything that we must address. Clearly the devil bears the responsibility of his own sin.
But in addressing the issue of what I recognize as being the common use of term “original sin,”
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We were in Adam when Adam sinned. Not merely spiritually but also physically. ( This principle is applied also in Hebrews 7 on another subject). As such, we inherit from Adam sinfulness. But nowhere do we inherit his sin, only the results of his sin.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here it clearly says that sin enters and death enters by the sin of Adam. Here is discussed the sin that is called “original sin.” This disobedience of Adam brought sinfulness and death. People who believe in atonement necessary for each individual’s portion of original sin read as if it says, “Wherefore, as by one man original sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have original sin:
But it doesn’t say that. It does say that sin and death enter because of one man’s sin. But it says that death comes to all men because all men sin, not because of Adam’s sin but because of their own.
So is there an original sin in relation to mankind? Yes. Does the punishment for original sin pass to us?
Yes, as all born after Adam except for Jesus were under effects of the Fall, born with sin natures and spiritually dead and not in a covenant relationship with God
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
That view makes the whole biblical account of no use.
For the absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

But since the bible does not support your view we can know that your view is spurious.
No lost sinner can get saved apart from the Father drawing them. choosing them and electing them, Jesus death in their stead as their sin bearer, and the regenerative working of the Holy Spirit
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I did a google search and found this from Charles Hodge: Systematic Theology volume 2
§ 13. Original Sin.

The effects of Adam’s sin upon his posterity are declared in our standards to be,
(1.) The guilt of his first sin.
(2.) The loss of original righteousness.
(3.) The corruption of our whole nature, which (i.e., which corruption), is commonly called original sin. Commonly, but not always. Not unfrequently by original sin is meant all the subjective evil consequences of the apostasy of our first parent, and it therefore includes all three of the particulars just mentioned. The National Synod of France, therefore, condemned the doctrine of Placæus, because he made original sin to consist of inherent, hereditary depravity, to the exclusion of the guilt of Adam’s first sin.

This inherent corruption in which all men since the fall are born, is properly called original sin,
(1.) Because it is truly of the nature of sin.
(2.) Because it flows from our first parents as the origin of our race.
(3.) Because it is the origin of all other sins; and
(4.) Because it is in its nature distinguished from actual sins.

Then a quote from the forum of Concord;
(1.) That this corruption of nature affects the whole soul.
(2.) That it consists in the loss or absence of original righteousness, and consequent entire moral depravity of our nature, including or manifesting itself in an aversion from all spiritual good, or from God, and an inclination to all evil.
(3.) That it is truly and properly of the nature of sin, involving both guilt and pollution.
(4.) That it retains its character as sin even in the regenerated.
(5.) That it renders the soul spiritually dead, so that the natural, or unrenewed man, is entirely unable of himself to do anything good in the sight of God.

This doctrine therefore stands opposed, —

1. To that which teaches that the race of man is uninjured by the fall of Adam.

2. To that which teaches that the evils consequent on the fall are merely physical.

3. To the doctrine which makes original sin entirely negative, consisting in the want of original righteousness.

4. To the doctrine which admits a hereditary depravity of nature, and makes it consist in an inclination to sin, but denies that it is itself sinful.

5. The fifth form of doctrine to which the Protestant faith stands opposed, is that which admits a moral deterioration of our nature, which deserves the displeasure of God, and which is therefore truly sin, and yet denies that the evil is so great as to amount to spiritual death, and to involve the entire inability of the natural man to what is spiritually good.

6. And the doctrine of the Protestant churches is opposed to the teachings of those who deny that original sin affects the whole man, and assert that it has its seat exclusively in the affections or the heart, while the understanding and reason are uninjured or uninfluenced.
Which as been the Reformed and the Calvinist Baptist view of the doctrine
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Just what those that hold to the view have said it means. DoG or TULIP, Detreminism, elect B4 creation etc. All just man-made theories that they have put forward.

Because we sin. We want to do it our way not God's way, which is sin.

That is why I keep pointing people back to scripture.


Yes our nature is to sin but we are not responsible for or held guilty because of Adams sin as C/R seem to think.

There is a vast difference between "sinning in Adam" and being responsible for our own sin.
Just as ALL in Adam are under judgement unto physical/spiritual death, and final condemnation, all those in Christ are saved, possess eternal life, and now no comdemnation
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Emphasis mine.
And there goes limited atonement. According to the original sin preferred definition.
No one denies that man is a sinner no one denies that man needs Jesus to come to the Father.
But some people still deny that God gives the ability to all.
He doesn't are not some vassals of his wrath?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Since your quote referred to original sin I will address that point

God devoted an entire chapter of the Bible to refuting the C/R interpretation of original sin. Eze_18:1-32. You can read the whole chapter but I’ll just quote the one verse.

Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

The entire chapter points out the error of the C/R view. I recommend you read it.
NOTHING to do with spiritual life, refers ONLY to those who have to face capital punishment for their sins, that one must face the penalty based upon own sinning
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If many is all in the beginning of the verse it will be at the end. The point that is being made is that sin affects every person. So does the gift.
Sin is not a gift. You have it like it or don’t.
The grace of God is a gift and you can reject it.
But that doesn’t change its efficacy. Only its application.
All limit to a degree the Atonement, except Universalists
 

Ben1445

Member
Glad we can agree in part.

Okay, we can agree here also

If you follow the chapter from verse 1 , both are being discussed, the believers and the scoffers

Ben, Eph 2 tells us that we were all Children of wrath, before we were saved right?
So yes, the part you bolded was speaking of those God was going to save after peter writes this. God has a plan, he saves His sheep worldwide, throughout time...Agree?
It is an academic point to say that Those who will not be saved, will not be saved.
As far as I can tell we disagree on the point where I read Scripture to say that where all are gone out of the way, and have all gone out of the way, the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
 

Ben1445

Member
We sin,agreed.
We are responsible for our own sins, yes for sure.
The question seems to be....why do we all sin?


Romans 3:23 says that All sinned. Romans 5 says sin and death entered with Adam. Adam was the first man to sin...Satan sinned , but he is not a man, right. So Adam passed on our sin nature to all mankind.
How do you find that original sin is atoned for?
 
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