is The Doctrine Of Original Sin taught In Bible?

[jbh28]

Agreed and we who are saved are not as good as we can be, but both the saved and the lost live as the result of personal choice that is not governed in any way by force. It is always choice.
The difference in the lost and the saved is that the lost are doing what they do to please themselves even if they deny themselves certain sins. The saved are doing what they do to please the Lord when they deny themselves certain sins.
The Lost always do what pleases them and can never please the Lord and the saved mostly do what pleases the Lord, but could always do so if they would.

well said!

 

[Winman]

And to say the curse was not on women is absurd, they die just like we do.

And if sin is inherited through the flesh, reality dictates you would inherit sin from your mother as you share her DNA and many physical features. And contrary to popular belief, your blood comes from both parents, ask any doctor.

But most of all, there is not one word of scripture to support this.

 

[freeatlast]

I have read Rom 5:12 and it does not say that Adam's sin passed on us, it says death passed on us FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

We die for our own sin. I have already posted twice that God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father (Eze 18:20). Folks read into a verse what it does not say, and ignore scripture that is plain as day and a child could understand.

I have read that Augustine derived his doctrine from the Vulgate that erroneously translated Rom 5:12 to say "for that all have sinned IN HIM". The words IN HIM are not in the Greek, and this is where this false doctrine originated.

Friend you are trying to pit scripture against scripture then you pick one side and because of it you are being blinded.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thta is about as clear as it gets!
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Both are true! The Romans passage explains why man is lost, all men and it is because of what Adam did. And it also explains how to get from under that curse.

The EZE passage explains that God does not punish someone for another's sin. So since God has provided a way to excape so we are now responsible for our sin if we reject his offer making us having to pay for our own sins.
Initially we are lost under a curse because of one man. Then we are set free because of One man who takes away the sin of the world, but if we reject the second man then we will pay for our sins because we chose to remain under the curse. Both passages are in harmony.

 

[Winman]

Friend you are trying to pit scripture against scripture then you pick one side and because of it you are being blinded.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thta is about as clear as it gets!
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Both are true! The Romans passage explains why man is lost, all men and it is because of what Adam did. And it also explains how to get from under that curse.

The EZE passage explains that God does not punish someone for another's sin. So since God has provided a way to excape so we are now responsible for our sin if we reject his offer making us having to pay for our own sins.
Initially we are lost under a curse because of one man. Then we are set free because of One man who takes away the sin of the world, but if we reject the second man then we will pay for our sins because we chose to remain under the curse. Both passages are in harmony.

Not buying it.

I do agree that because of Adam's sin that the ground was cursed. And because we are composed of the dust of the ground this curse applies to us. Therefore, we all grow old, get sick, and die. This curse extends to all creation, animals who do not sin die, plants die, and even unliving things wax old... stars burn out, mountains erode, metals corrode and rust...

 

[freeatlast]

And to say the curse was not on women is absurd, they die just like we do.

And if sin is inherited through the flesh, reality dictates you would inherit sin from your mother as you share her DNA and many physical features. And contrary to popular belief, your blood comes from both parents, ask any doctor.

But most of all, there is not one word of scripture to support this.

Why do you change peoples statements? Who said that the curse is not on the woman? All men (people) male and female are cursed, but the male is the one who passes the curse on. I believe that this is why the Jew male was required to be circumcised. It was a reminder every time he saw himself naked that he was responsible for passing on the curse. Man's actions cut man off from God and God gave him a reminder or sign of his cutting off as to what he did. if you cannot believe that then at least believe scripture.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
it does not say by two people. Just ONE MAN

 

[freeatlast]

Not buying it.

I do agree that because of Adam's sin that the ground was cursed. And because we are composed of the dust of the ground this curse applies to us. Therefore, we all grow old, get sick, and die. This curse extends to all creation, animals who do not sin die, plants die, and even unliving things wax old... stars burn out, mountains erode, metals corrode and rust...

That is your choice.

 

[Winman]

continued...

But there is not one word in all of scripture that says God cursed man's moral nature. Imagine that, a doctrine built on NOTHING!

Now, you would think a doctrine of such enormous magnitude would be expressed explicitly throughout the scriptures, and yet, not one word. Nowhere does the Bible say that God cursed man's nature. In fact, the evidence argues otherwise. God commands us to do good and keep his commandments on nearly every page of scripture.

If you know where God cursed our nature, I would love to see it.

 

[jbh28]

Winman, define what a nature is.

If sin isn't in our nature, then how do we do it? I cannot fly because flying isn't part of my human nature.

 

[Winman]

Winman, define what a nature is.

If sin isn't in our nature, then how do we do it? I cannot fly because flying isn't part of my human nature.

That's a terrible analogy. We cannot fly because we were never designed to fly.

Nature is the natural order of things. And believe it or not, sinners actually go against their nature. It's true.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL use into that which is AGAINST NATURE. 27 And likewise also the men, LEAVING the NATURAL use of the woman, burned in lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Now look at these verses. It is saying that sinners go AGAINST their own nature, not with it. They LEAVE it. It is natural for a man to desire a woman, not a man.

You will never believe this, but we were designed to do good. Good is our nature, evil goes against our nature.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

Now, unlike those mentioned before, these Gentiles are following their nature. And what are they doing? Good.

Your own conscience confirms this, when you do good you feel happy and confident, when you do wrong you feel guilty and afraid.

Bet you'll never hear this in a Reformed church!!

 

[jbh28]

That's a terrible analogy. We cannot fly because we were never designed to fly.

Nature is the natural order of things. And believe it or not, sinners actually go against their nature. It's true.

So nature to you is just what is natural? That's not what a nature is. Nature is a set of attributes. My analogy wasn't bad at all. We cannot fly because it's not in our nature(physical) to fly. It's not in our nature to fly because we were not designed that way, yes.

btw, just searching for a word in the Bible isn't a real answer. Words have multiple meanings. A nature is a set of attributes. We sin because sin is in our nature. God cannot lie because lying isn't in His nature.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL use into that which is AGAINST NATURE. 27 And likewise also the men, LEAVING the NATURAL use of the woman, burned in lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Now look at these verses. It is saying that sinners go AGAINST their own nature, not with it. They LEAVE it. It is natural for a man to desire a woman, not a man.

The word nature isn't being used the same way. It's defined there as "natural."

Also, it doesn't say that sinners go against THEIR OWN nature. there you added something that wasn't there to change the definition of the term nature.

 

[DHK]

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves.

Now, unlike those mentioned before, these Gentiles are following their nature. And what are they doing? Good.

How can you answer "good" when you just went through Romans 1?
You got the wrong answer.
What are the Gentiles doing? Look at the Scriptures again:

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:29-32)
--Doing good? I don't think so.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)
--Doing good? I don't think so.

Even the believer retreats to his old nature, that sin nature inherited from Adam, when he does not rely on the power of Christ.

Why would Paul write this passage of Scripture if it was not needed?

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
--Put on the new man. It is a command. It implies (as described in previous verses) that these believers had not completely put off the old man (nature).

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
--Lying is one of the works of the flesh that comes from the old sin nature, a nature that one still has as a believer. Paul is writing to believers.
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
--Some were being angry and sinning, and thus this admonishment. Again, they were giving into their old nature; their sin nature.

27 Neither give place to the devil.
--He wouldn't write if, if some weren't doing it.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
--Perhaps stealing was a problem with some in the church as well.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
--Corrupt communication. We hear that a lot these days. Yes, even from believers. It comes from a carnal nature, a carnal heart, a carnal believer.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
--And the Holy Spirit is grieved because of all the deeds done in the name of Christ, done by carnal Christians.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
--More evil that comes from believers originating from the old man, the sin nature.

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:24-32)
--The answer is in Christ.

 

[Winman]

That's nonsense, Paul is rebuking Jews who do not keep the law and contrasting them to Gentiles who do by nature.

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law (the Jews), through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou break the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 THEREFORE IF THE UNCIRCUMCISION KEEP THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW (the Gentiles), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision (the Gentiles) which is BY NATURE, IF IT FULFILL THE LAW, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost trangress the law?

Paul is rebuking Jews here, he is saying they cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles who keep the law by nature.

Maybe it is you that needs to study.

 

[DHK]

That's nonsense, Paul is rebuking Jews who do not keep the law and contrasting them to Gentiles who do by nature.

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law (the Jews), through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou break the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 THEREFORE IF THE UNCIRCUMCISION KEEP THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW (the Gentiles), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision (the Gentiles) which is BY NATURE, IF IT FULFILL THE LAW, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost trangress the law?

Paul is rebuking Jews here, he is saying they cause the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles who keep the law by nature.

Maybe it is you that needs to study.

I quoted Scripture from Romans chapters one and two, and then from Ephesians four. All of those passages are directed to Gentiles. In Romans he is describing Gentiles of all sorts. In Ephesians he is specifically speaking to the Gentile Christians (or perhaps to all the Christians) at the church in Ephesus. Not one passage that I referred to was directed to Jews.

 

[Winman]

I quoted Scripture from Romans chapters one and two, and then from Ephesians four. All of those passages are directed to Gentiles. In Romans he is describing Gentiles of all sorts. In Ephesians he is specifically speaking to the Gentile Christians (or perhaps to all the Christians) at the church in Ephesus. Not one passage that I referred to was directed to Jews.

And the point I am making is that Paul is rebuking his fellow Jews, saying that Gentiles often do a better job of following God's laws by simply following their nature than the Jews who had God's laws. He is not saying they are perfectly sinless, but neither are they utterly depraved as some here teach. Men by nature have the law written on their hearts, and they have a conscience. Look up the definition of conscience in any dictionary, it means having a sense of right and wrong and an inclination to desire to do what is right. Men can do some real good. And that is what Paul is saying.

When the scriptures say no one does good, it is speaking of 100% good, which no man except Jesus has done.

 

[DHK]

And the point I am making is that Paul is rebuking his fellow Jews, saying that Gentiles often do a better job of following God's laws by simply following their nature than the Jews who had God's laws. He is not saying they are perfectly sinless, but neither are they utterly depraved as some here teach. Men by nature have the law written on their hearts, and they have a conscience. Look up the definition of conscience in any dictionary, it means having a sense of right and wrong and an inclination to desire to do what is right. Men can do some real good. And that is what Paul is saying.

When the scriptures say no one does good, it is speaking of 100% good, which no man except Jesus has done.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:14-15)

The last part of the verse says "while accusing or excusing one another. They had the law, but it didn't do them much good. They sinned against the law and then they blamed each other for their sin, just like Adam excused himself and blamed Eve. Eve excused herself and accused the Serpent. That is what that phrase means. It is the nature of man to excuse themselves from the responsibility of sin and accuse others of the same sin that they ought to be responsible for. Watch some court proceedings some day.

 

[Winman]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. (Romans 2:14-15)

The last part of the verse says "while accusing or excusing one another. They had the law, but it didn't do them much good. They sinned against the law and then they blamed each other for their sin, just like Adam excused himself and blamed Eve. Eve excused herself and accused the Serpent. That is what that phrase means. It is the nature of man to excuse themselves from the responsibility of sin and accuse others of the same sin that they ought to be responsible for. Watch some court proceedings some day.

I disagree, Paul is clearly saying these Gentiles DO the law, and says this is evidence that the law is written on their hearts. And in Rom 2:26-27 he says they KEEP the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law, and by NATURE fulfill the law.

And this is proved by verse 29 where Paul says;

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the HEART, in the spirit, and not the letter; whose PRAISE is not of men, but of God.

God does not praise evil, or phony good. He is saying that these self-righteous Jews should not have contempt for the Gentiles, who are not only able, but often do righteous works worthy of praise from God BY NATURE.

You say the exact opposite of what this scripture is clearly saying.

 

[DHK]

I disagree, Paul is clearly saying these Gentiles DO the law, and says this is evidence that the law is written on their hearts. And in Rom 2:26-27 he says they KEEP the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law, and by NATURE fulfill the law.

Paul was using contrast and sarcasm. Truthfully, did the Gentiles keep the righteousness of the law--all the time? Or was it just once in awhile to show that they had some semblance of self-righteousness? There are many moral unbelievers; most are still immoral. It was a simple illustration to show that the righteousness of the Jew could not save.

Take the entire context into view.
Chapter one was to show that all Gentiles were under condemnation.
Chapter two was to show that the Jews were under condemnation.
Chapter three was to show that both Jews and Gentiles were under condemnation--all the world was under the condemnation of God. The law could not save them.
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
"There is none good no not one."
The Gentiles were not good. They were not righteous.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (Romans 3:9)
--None were righteous; none were good; all were under sin and its condemnation.

And this is proved by verse 29 where Paul says;

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the HEART, in the spirit, and not the letter; whose PRAISE is not of men, but of God.

You can't cherry pick verses and take them out of their context.
This is in contrast to the majority of the Jews who he was addressing. You are waffling going back and forth. You were talking of the goodness of Gentiles. Now you turn to the goodness of Jews. This verse speaks of believers.

God does not praise evil, or phony good. He is saying that these self-righteous Jews should not have contempt for the Gentiles, who are not only able, but often do righteous works worthy of praise from God BY NATURE.

You ignore the rest of the Bible. You quoted the last two or three verses of Romans chapter one, and then proceeded to ignore its teaching. What's up with that? Do you usually ignore the teaching of the verses you quote.

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:32)

You say the exact opposite of what this scripture is clearly saying.

I reserve that conclusion for you to ponder on.

 

[Winman]

No, of course he is not saying they do right all the time, no one does (except for Jesus).

But you are missing the point. Sometimes they truly do righteous works that is praised by God.

The problem with your belief is that it denies unsaved men can do any good, which is clearly refuted by Jesus himself. Jesus said evil men can give good gifts. Now, if anyone understands perfect doctrine, it is Jesus. And God is not careless with his words, if Jesus said these gifts were good, then they truly were good.

You have adopted the false doctrine of Calvinism that makes good works evil. In this view, someone who gives their life to save another has performed just as evil an act as a mass murderer. This is absolute nonsense. Even unsaved men can do some good.

Cornelius is proof of this. He was unsaved, yet the scriptures say he was devout and feared God. He gave much alms and prayed always.

But Cornelius was not saved, God heard his prayer and sent Peter to preach the gospel to him. Only after hearing the gospel did he believe on Jesus and was saved.

Why would God send Peter to preach the gospel to him if he were already saved?


And how did Cornelius do those good works that pleased God when he did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter preached to him?

This view that EVERYTHING unsaved men do is evil is utterly unscriptural.

 

[DHK]

No, of course he is not saying they do right all the time, no one does (except for Jesus).

But you are missing the point. Sometimes they truly do righteous works that is praised by God.

Where?
Scripture condemns their works.

An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin. (Proverbs 21:4)
--The very plowing of a field, the harvesting of grain, and the consequent distribution of it to feed the poor is sin in God's eyes. There is nothing that an unsaved man can do that is good.

What did Jesus teach the rich young ruler?
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him,
18 Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:17-18)
--Jesus was rebuking this young man: Why do you call me good?
He was claiming deity. Only God is good. If I am good, then I am God; If I am not good, then I am not God. Be careful who you call "good." Only God is good.
Thus only God, and those in whom God dwells can do "good things." It is impossible for someone in whom God does not dwell to do good. He is inherently evil. He does not do good. He does evil continually. See Romans 3:9-12.

Notice that when Jesus directed the young man to the Ten Commandments, he (like most other unsaved people) said that he had kept them all of his life (from my youth upward).
Then Jesus told him to do one more thing:

Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. (Mark 10:21)
--This he couldn't do.
Christ was pointing out one very obvious thing. It was the sin of covetousness. He coveted his riches more than Christ. His riches had become an idol to Him. He would not follow Christ, but rather his riches.
Thus he went away.

And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. (Mark 10:22)

Other Scripture:
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)
--The unsaved has no righteousnesses. (all our righteous acts), as Young's translation, puts it. There is no righteous act that an unsaved person can do. They are counted as filthy rags--useless, of no value.

The problem with your belief

No, No, No. I don't have any problems with my beliefs.

it denies unsaved men can do any good, which is clearly refuted by Jesus himself. Jesus said evil men can give good gifts.

Jesus himself said that no man is good; only God is good. Do you think he contradicts himself? No. It is you that must have a misunderstanding of Scripture. The great preponderance of Scripture stands against you.

Now, if anyone understands perfect doctrine, it is Jesus. And God is not careless with his words, if Jesus said these gifts were good, then they truly were good.

Jesus said only God was good; and the only good came from Him.
There is none good, no not one. The Bible doesn't lie.

You have adopted the false doctrine of Calvinism that makes good works evil.

I am not a Calvinist. But you have such a hatred for Calvinism that you can't see Biblical doctrine clearly. It has clouded your judgment in other areas of the Bible. To accuse me of such a belief is simply a false accusation that should not be tolerated here. Why are you resorting to such things. This is how threads degenerate and get closed down.

In this view, someone who gives their life to save another has performed just as evil an act as a mass murderer. This is absolute nonsense. Even unsaved men can do some good.

Not in God's eyes. They cannot do good. That is what the Scripture teaches, whether you like it or not. They have a depraved nature and come out of their mother's womb speaking lies. Children need to be taught to tell the truth, but they don't need to be taught how to lie. "There is none that does good, no not one."
"There is none righteous, no not one."

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--Man can't do good even if he tried. It is against his nature to do so.

Cornelius is proof of this. He was unsaved, yet the scriptures say he was devout and feared God. He gave much alms and prayed always.

But Cornelius was not saved, God heard his prayer and sent Peter to preach the gospel to him. Only after hearing the gospel did he believe on Jesus and was saved.

Cornelius was devout and feared Jehovah. He was a convert to Judaism, similar to Ruth and Rahab of old.

Why would God send Peter to preach the gospel to him if he were already saved?

Because Jewish converts needed Christ as well. Their religion could not save them.

And how did Cornelius do those good works that pleased God when he did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter preached to him?

The same way John and Peter did before they believed on Christ. They were Jews.
This view that EVERYTHING unsaved men do is evil is utterly unscriptural.[/QUOTE]
The Bible teaches it; you reject it. There is nothing more that I can say.
There is none righteous, no not one.