Is the Flesh Sinful?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre:
1. We should not read "flesh" in Paul as "physical stuff". I believe that Paul uses the word "flesh" (Greek "sarx") to denote mankind in his totality when he is in an unredeemed state. I am not sure how important this assertion of mine will be to what I subsequently write - I am thinking on the fly

HP: Your reasoning is flying high and straight in accordance to reason I might add.....so far

Andre: 2. Sin, for Paul, is like a "force" or power that can exist "outside" of a person. The issues here are quite subtle. While Paul attributes almost a "personhood" to the power of sin, he believes that it has made its "home" in the human person - in the "flesh", the latter term properly understood to denote the whole person, not just the "atoms and molecules.

3. Paul writes this very interesting statement in Romans 7:

For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

HP: Consider the notion that Paul, as a brilliant teacher, and in order to position himself as one with the listener, is speaking in the first person as to the state the listener, not directly of himself or even his own past experiences necessarily. This is a common practice with all seasoned preachers and teachers who know and understand the quagmire of troubles the listener finds themselves in. It helps to remove any idea that the listener himself is being singled out individually, quenching any feelings that they are being unjustly or unkindly fingered, and allows the listener to come upon the conclusion via his own conscience and his own deductions, that the problem being addressed is indeed his own. This sets up the mind for an acceptance of the solution to the problem at hand not as one being driven to a conclusion by another, but by their own God given reasoning as enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Then the wise and gifted apostle boldly lays out before the listener the solution to their problems. “ Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

If this is not the case, how in good conscience could Paul state that he had ‘lived in all good conscience unto this day,” claimed to be made free from sin numerous times, spoke of himself and others at least one time as being ‘perfect’ and claimed to be, even in his past according to the law, blameless? The very least that one can say is that IF this passage you speak of refers to the Apostles experience personally at any time, it must of necessity been prior to his new birth. "Being made free from sin..."

 

[Dustin]

Q. Is the flesh sinful?

A. What saith the Scriptures?

 

[DHK]

In the final analysis it looks like this.
We came from dust and we will return to dust.
Our bodies are made up of a handful of chemicals which at death can be mixed into a puddle of water. They are worth no more than $5.00 to $10.00 on the open market if that. Chemicals do not have any moral nature. They do not carry a sin nature and therefore cannot be classified as sinful or sinless. To think of them as such is quite absurd. We came from dust and we will return to dust. Dust has no moral value.

However the Lord took those chemicals and that water, and he so structured them in such an order that he made a human and breathed in him the breathe of life. He gave him a soul and a spirit also.
Paul says:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--God has given every one of us a soul, spirit and body. Our body (flesh) has no sin attached to it. It has no moral value. It is not sinful or sinless. It is amoral. Paul explains this further:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

A tabernacle (our body of "flesh") is like a tent, a tent in which I go camping in. It simply houses me. It has no moral value. It is what is in that tent (that tabernacle) that is important. In fact we wait until that tabernacle is destroyed so that we may receive a new tabernacle, a better one, one that can never be destroyed.

Paul gives another picture:
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Previous to verse 24 Paul describes a great struggle that wages on within him. It is the battle that he has with sin. He does those things that he doesn't want to do; and those things that he doesn't want to do, he does. It seems like he cannot avoid sin. In desperation he calls out: "O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death."
Note that the body itself is not sinful. It is the person inside the body that Paul is referring to. But pay attention to the glorious answer that is given.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
In all things it is Christ that gives us the victory.

"Then with the mind I myself serve the law of God"
--The battle is in the mind. The mind must be submitted to God. What is the mind? The mind is the soul. It is sometimes referred to the heart in the Bible.
Jesus said:
Mark 7:21-22 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

We think about these evil things with our mind, out of heart. The mind and heart are interchangeable here. I believe it is also speaking of the soul which is where the mind resides. The brain, per se, is just a bunch of chemicals. God gives it life. The sin nature, inherited through Adam resides in the soul of man.
The spirit of man is dead in an unsaved state. It is inoperable until the Spirit of God makes it alive. See Eph.2:1.

"with the flesh the law of sin."
This is the flesh nature." It is not referring to the cells of my body, but rather the nature that I inherited through Adam. There is nothing inherently bad about the cells that make up my body. But the nature that I have received from Adam is evil.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[annsni]

HP: Sin indeed lies in the spirit or soul of man. The ‘inner man,’ not the flesh. It is the spirit/soul that will stand and give an account at the judgment bar of God in the world to come, not the natural decaying dead flesh.

On another note, if physical death was the penalty of sin, then Christ would have died in vain seeing that all would be paid by mere mortals as they ceased their physical existence. It would also raise the issue of double jeaprody, man having to continue to pay for that which Christ supposedly had already paid for. Such would render the payment made by Christ as 'ineffectual' to accomplish it's ends as well, seeing man is still paying for that which was supposed to already be paid for.



HP: Sinful flesh, as has been mentioned several times before, is a reference to the ‘whole of humanity’ that has sinned.

Oh - Sorry! Someone else had said that the wages of sin is death and all men die and that is the payment of sin - so I was repeating that. I TOTALLY don't believe that physical death is the wages of sin but spiritual death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Oh - Sorry! Someone else had said that the wages of sin is death and all men die and that is the payment of sin - so I was repeating that. I TOTALLY don't believe that physical death is the wages of sin but spiritual death.

HP: You are correct. I was NOT trying to pin that on you in the least. I remember well who said that and it was not you. I was simply remarking upon it as I thought it went along with the topic you were addressing. I should have made it clear that I was NOT speaking concerning anything you said directly. I was simply trying not to open old wounds by pointing out the person directly who said it. You were just the lucky one to whom I posted that might from now on be blamed for it. :laugh: Sorry!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

HP: You are correct. I was NOT trying to pin that on you in the least. I remember well who said that and it was not you. I was simply remarking upon it as I thought it went along with the topic you were addressing. I should have made it clear that I was NOT speaking concerning anything you said directly. I was simply trying not to open old wounds by pointing out the person directly who said it. You were just the lucky one to whom I posted that might from now on be blamed for it. :laugh: Sorry!:smilewinkgrin:

:laugh: OK sounds good!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, I thought we had a reasonable debate going but it seems to me that you simply dumped the debate by failing to respond directly to the questions I raised in post #53 which was an attempted rebuttal to your previous remarks. Your last post still raises far more questions but I would like to get a response to the ones I have asked before proceeding. Fair enough?

 

[DHK]

HP: No, Roman 5: 12-19 does not teach constitutional moral depravity commonly known as Augustinian original sin. The Scriptures you mention have been gone over many times so I will not address them at this time.

Now bear in mind ridiculous is a word you yourself used. You say that to say that sin resides in the flesh is ridiculous, and then tell us that you are not certain if you believe it resides in the sperm or not, that it might not be ‘written in stone.” How can I conclude otherwise than you cannot even decide whether or not your own sentiments on this issue are ridiculous or not? If by chance they are ridiculous, as you at least allow for the clear possibility to exist, would it not be wise for you to first establish what you honestly believe in a manner consistent with reason and Scripture which we can safely assume is truth and as such far from the ‘ridiculous’? Either it is entirely possible for sin to lie in the flesh, the sperm of man to be exact, or it is impossible for sin to lie in the flesh and as such cannot be transmitted by the sperm of man.

I had to reread your posts so as not to confuse your beleifs with another. It seems that you agree with me that in the respect flesh in and of itself is not sinful or sinless. Here is a quote from post #22

Quote:
CM: Read James 1 and the idea is clear that sin is our fault, not our flesh's fault. As has been stated several times in several ways, sin requires will. No will, no sin.

So flesh is not sinful, simple as that.

HP: Well stated CM. :thumbs:

It appears that you agree with CM that flesh is not sinful. It was "well stated."

You cannot waffle on both sides of the fence. Either your position is clearly ‘toenail’ ‘ridiculous,’ in your own words, or sin does not and cannot lie or be transmitted by the sperm (flesh) of man, just as you say it cannot be transmitted by the egg of woman. Which is it?

Sin is transmitted by the man. The biology of it isn't that important. But the Word of God is. If God says it then I believe it. And that should settle it. If you want to go through Romans 5:12-19 again I will, for I believe the passage is very conclusive, verses 12 and 18 in particular.
However, as has been suggested the sin nature can be said to be "tied to" instead of "residing in" the sperm, if indeed the sperm is that which is involved. What the Bible makes clear to us is that the sin nature is common to all mankind and that man (the male) passes it down. God never explained the Biological processes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

'God never explained the Biological processes'

but its chemistry unmistably explains itself to us ...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: What the Bible makes clear to us is that the sin nature is common to all mankind and that man (the male) passes it down.

HP: That is simply false. Scripture does not say that the sin nature is passed down to all by the male. You are reading into the text pure conjecture, pure specuolation, the product of the presuppositions you of your own choosing have decided to allow your interpretation of Scripture to be guided by. ‘Through one man sin entered the world.’ Where does it say that sin was passed down and by ‘the male???”

Show us where the 'sin nature' or a 'nature to sin' is ever defined as constitutional, sinful, moral depravity from birth in Scripture that is passed down by the male. We do not want your presuppositions, nor your conjecture, nor your what if's, we want to see one clear text that substantiates your position.

 

[DHK]

HP: That is simply false. Scripture does not say that the sin nature is passed down to all by the male. You are reading into the text pure conjecture, pure specuolation,

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The Scriptures speak for themselves. He that hath ears let him hear.

 

[Andre]

Show us where the 'sin nature' or a 'nature to sin' is ever defined as constitutional, sinful, moral depravity from birth in Scripture that is passed down by the male.

Just so that it is clear where we are all coming from, I would like to assert the following (no scriptures yet - just want to state my position):

1. All human beings are born in a state which ensures that they will sin. Man is not free to "not sin"

2. This state is not a state to be conceived of as entailing moral culpability. We are born "broken", not "guilty". But if we are not "fixed", the result is death. This is not "punishment", it is simply the unavoidable end state of being "broken".

3. Men can, even in their broken state, realize that they are broken and "freely" accept the "fix".

If I recall, you (HP) have in the past rejected my assertion number 2.

 

[Andre]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I think this is indeed "proof" that we are born into a state that will certainly lead to death if not remedied. Again, we do not die because we are "guilty" (since we cannot be morally culpable for being born a certain way) - we die because that is the natural consequence of being broken. Indeed we do sin and the sin leads to death. But, and this is important, since we cannot resist the urge to sin, we cannot be morally culpable. Yet we still die.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Indeed. But I do think it is important to not apply the wrong concepts. If we can resist the inborn drive to "speak lies", we cannot be held morally accountable. But we still die - we are just not being punished.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I do not think this text is referring to man in his natural state. I think that Gentile Christians are the subject of this text - the natural man does not have the law written on his heart. The context demands that Paul cannot be talking about unbelievers here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: 1. All human beings are born in a state which ensures that they will sin. Man is not free to "not sin"

HP: The wording on this is vague. Based on Scripture I can assure you all born in our dispensation will sin, but that is based on God’s foreknowledge, not something such as original sin that mandates all as sinners. Whether or not I agree with this statement depends on what exactly you mean by ‘ensures.’ If you are stating the position of original sin in that all must of necessity sin due to the fact they are necessitated sinners from birth I would completely and emphatically disagree with you. Tell us just what you mean by the word ‘ensures.’

Andre: 2. This state is not a state to be conceived of as entailing moral culpability. We are born "broken", not "guilty". But if we are not "fixed", the result is death. This is not "punishment", it is simply the unavoidable end state of being "broken".

HP: If in fact man is broken morally and spiritually and that from birth, they are necessitated as they are. It is absurd to try and say that God holds them in any way accountable for either how they have been born or any necessitated acts subsequent to, seeing that no choice is possible. Please do not try and tell us that the necessitated sinner has a choice to sin subsequent to birth. That is an intellectual absurdity. Choice must consist of two or more possible consequents for a given antecedent. When one states that there is only one possible consequent, to sin having been created as a sinner, choice is eliminated regardless of any lip service to the contrary. If there is no choice, moral accountability can in no way be assessed.

Andre: Men can, even in their broken state, realize that they are broken and "freely" accept the "fix".

HP: When are we going to realize that it is the sin we commit, not the rejection of the ‘fix,’ that separates us from God and to which all are held accountable for regardless if they ever hear of the ‘fix’ or not? “Your sins have separated you from your God” is the Scriptural admonition. Certainly the rejection of the fix will indeed seal ones fate, but is not the first cause of the malady. It is our sins.


It is a false notion to conclude that the damning sin is the rejection of the cure. The damning sin is any willful disobedience to a known commandment of God apart from repentance, faith, and continued obedience until the end.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 5: Romans 5:18 Romans 5:19 Psalms 58:3 Romans 2:14 Romans 2:15
The Scriptures speak for themselves. He that hath ears let him hear.

HP: Scripture is wonderful, but what good does it do in a debate to simply post them out of any context and then tell us that they speak for themselves? There is no one on the list, with as far out ideas as could possibly be imagined, that could not do the same thing. Who could not post the last verse you post without trying to give his or her idea credence? Does it enhance your position in a debate? No way.

You have yet to produce one clear passage that states or implies that the nature man is born with is sinful in and of itself, or that we are born guilty of Adams sin or that Adam’s sin is passed on to us, or that anyones sin can be passed on to anyone else or that Adam’s sin is imputed to us. If you honestly believe you have, point out one of these texts. Do not simply give us the quote, for we have that ourselves, but rather point to the direct parts in the verse in context that make the claim you say it does. For instance, in Romans 5:18, show us where sin has passed upon all men as you claim. Possibly you believe the words ‘death’ and ‘sin’ are interchangeable?

 

[Brother Bob]

I think this is indeed "proof" that we are born into a state that will certainly lead to death if not remedied. Again, we do not die because we are "guilty" (since we cannot be morally culpable for being born a certain way) - we die because that is the natural consequence of being broken. Indeed we do sin and the sin leads to death. But, and this is important, since we cannot resist the urge to sin, we cannot be morally culpable. Yet we still die.


Indeed. But I do think it is important to not apply the wrong concepts. If we can resist the inborn drive to "speak lies", we cannot be held morally accountable. But we still die - we are just not being punished.


I do not think this text is referring to man in his natural state. I think that Gentile Christians are the subject of this text - the natural man does not have the law written on his heart. The context demands that Paul cannot be talking about unbelievers here.

We do not have to sin to die naturally. We die because Adam sinned. When we sin, and we do when we come to know God and glorify Him not as God, then the second death is pronounced upon us. Sin brings death, but when it comes to the natural death, Adam already committed that sin for all mankind. It is appointed unto men to die once and that is because of the sin of Adam.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: We do not have to sin to die naturally. We die because Adam sinned. When we sin, and we do when we come to know God and glorify Him not as God, then the second death is pronounced upon us. Sin brings death, but when it comes to the natural death, Adam already committed that sin for all mankind. It is appointed unto men to die once and that is because of the sin of Adam.

HP: I might explain sin and death in this manner. When Adam sinned God pronounced upon him a curse, both physically and spiritually. He was cursed physically in this world in one way by severely limiting his time on this physical planet ending with the cessation of physical life by physical death. We, as the physical offspring of Adam, inherit as part of our physical nature, entropy, culminating in physical death.

When we join Adam in committing sin by the willful disobedience to a known commandment of God, (with physical death already reigning in the physical, NOT necessarily because we have sinned, but on the account of simply being physical descendants of Adam) we also join him in the spiritual death God pronounces upon all that sin. “It is appointed once for man to die” in the physical as physical descendents of Adam. Spiritual death is meted out individually on the spiritual condition of the individual at time of physical death.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: I might explain sin and death in this manner. When Adam sinned God pronounced upon him a curse, both physically and spiritually. He was cursed physically in this world in one way by severely limiting his time on this physical planet ending with the cessation of physical life by physical death. We, as the physical offspring of Adam, inherit as part of our physical nature, entropy, culminating in physical death.

When we join Adam in committing sin by the willful disobedience to a known commandment of God, (with physical death already reigning in the physical, NOT necessarily because we have sinned, but on the account of simply being physical descendants of Adam) we also join him in the spiritual death God pronounces upon all that sin. “It is appointed once for man to die” in the physical as physical descendents of Adam. Spiritual death is meted out individually on the spiritual condition of the individual at time of physical death.

I agree on the physical death but then the individual comes to the age to know God and glorifys Him not, then he completes the sin and brings spiritual death. But, if he dies before reaching that age, then the second death is never pronounced upon him, but he is still in need of a Saviour to deliver him from a corruptable body, for we begin to perish the day we are born, and the grave unto a glorious body and Heaven.

I think we are saying the same thing.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

You have yet to produce one clear passage that states or implies that the nature man is born with is sinful in and of itself, or that we are born guilty of Adams sin or that Adam’s sin is passed on to us, or that anyones sin can be passed on to anyone else or that Adam’s sin is imputed to us. If you honestly believe you have, point out one of these texts. Do not simply give us the quote, for we have that ourselves, but rather point to the direct parts in the verse in context that make the claim you say it does. For instance, in Romans 5:18, show us where sin has passed upon all men as you claim. Possibly you believe the words ‘death’ and ‘sin’ are interchangeable?

Original sin. "Our first parents being the root of all mankind, the guilt of their sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature were conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation." Adam was constituted by God the federal head and representative of all his posterity, as he was also their natural head, and therefore when he fell they fell with him (Ro 5:12-21; 1Co 15:22-45). His probation was their probation, and his fall their fall. Because of Adam's first sin all his posterity came into the world in a state of sin and condemnation, i.e.,
(1) a state of moral corruption, and
(2) of guilt, as having judicially imputed to them the guilt of Adam's first sin.

"Original sin" is frequently and properly used to denote only the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all actual sin. It is called "sin" (Ro 6:12,14,17; 7:5-17), the "flesh" (Ga 5:17,24), "lust" (Jas 1:14-15), the "body of sin" (Ro 6:6), "ignorance," "blindness of heart," "alienation from the life of God" (Eph 4:18-19). It influences and depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam (Ro 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7).
Pelagians deny original sin, and regard man as by nature morally and spiritually well;
semi-Pelagians regard him as morally sick;
Augustinians, or, as they are also called, Calvinists, regard man as described above, spiritually dead (Eph 2:1; 1Jo 3:14). (Easton’s Bible Dictionary)

I know that I am not a semi-Pelagian or a Pelagian. Thus the only reasonable position left to take on this topic is that of the Calvinist, and as you can see there is plenty of Scripture to back it up.

 

[trustitl]

To be spiritually dead needs to be defined. I don't think we are ever spiritually dead. We are born with no innate desire to love and serve God, but I don't think that is spiritually dead. This term appears no where in scripture.

If my spirit is dead, I am no longer me. A will in bondage is no longer a will.

This is where Calvin and his followere go wrong. Being born again does not make my spirit come to life, but it is what makes me "alive unto God" as stated by Paul in Romans 6.

Before regeneration I was merely living life "after the flesh" and could not please God. My spirit, or me, was choosing to live that way. There was no "sinful nature" controlling me. It was me choosing to live after the flesh. Now, by God's grace, new life has begun and I am in fellowship with God and have "Christ in me". PTL!

Before I was born again, my spirit wanted to do right or be good. Calvin says otherwise. I know some will say the scriptures do too, but I think these verses are misunderstood and interpreted according to the doctrine of total depravity.

Paul wanted to do right as well.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul makes it clear that he was not "spiritually dead" before he was saved but the "law" or controlling force of his flesh had him by the reigns. Remember, sin reigns in an unbelievers life.

My flesh is sinful in that it is not Godly. It can't be, it only flesh. True worshippers must worship is spirit and in truth. There is only one solution to be from under the reign of the flesh: kill it.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col. 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The circumcised flesh is no longer alive and is not reigning.