Is The Foreknowledge of God Same As His Fore Causing?

[Skandelon]

I haven't read the thread...but that really isn't the point, and I suspect you understood that.

The point is this--you (and many others) bristle strongly at labels being applied to you that you don't specifically claim for yourself. Whether the label is true or not is not the issue.

And, since you don't like certain labels being applied to you--whether you happen to object or not--to apply certain labels to others--whether they happen to object or not--is not "doing unto others..."

And my point is that I am not sure, based on what we have read (which you have admitted to having not read), that they would have any problem being put in the camp of an exhaustive/hard determinist. That was the point of Van's comment and the point of my follow up statement.

Why is the burden of proof on the one denying?

That is the point. I don't believe they are denying it. Do you?

Let's let them tell us...

 

[JesusFan]

Based on two responses, can we conclude: (1) all the Calvinists posting on BB are hyper-Calvinists openly asserting exhaustive determinism or (2) the Calvinists posting on BB are unwilling to defend their doctrinal differences with the exhaustive determinists?

Actually, I would think that the proper response would be NONE of the above..

Think that most of the Calvinists posting here would say that thought he Lord does know all things, and works his Will in bringing things to pass..
That he is absolute in control...

Still, there is a sense that people/beings DO make a conscious choice ..

Think Bible sums it up best when it declares that Jesus death on the Cross was foreordained/predetined by Will of God, but that the peoples doing that act were by their own choice "free will"

 

[The Archangel]

And my point is that I am not sure, based on what we have read (which you have admitted to having not read), that they would have any problem being put in the camp of an exhaustive/hard determinist. That was the point of Van's comment and the point of my follow up statement.

That is the point. I don't believe they are denying it. Do you?

Let's let them tell us...

I expected as much....Sadly disappointing.

As I asked:

Why is the burden of proof on the one denying? You would not accept that burden for yourself if I was to, say, label you as an Open Theist. No, having seen your interaction for a long time, you would put the burden on the one making the charge--as you have done numerous times. (For the record, I am not calling you an Open Theist)

So, it would seem--in the land of Skandelon--that the burden is placed upon anyone who is not you.

Again, with the labels, "do unto others..." If you don't appreciate being labeled a Pelagian, an Open Theist, a Heretic, etc., just assume other people won't appreciate being labeled a Hyper-Calvinist, a Hard-Determinist, etc.

After all, that is the meaning of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is it not? The meaning is not "do unto others until they deny what you call them;" The meaning is not "do unto others as they have done unto you." Therefore, take the text, Christian, and do as the text says--assume since you don't like labels, others won't like them either.

Now, all of us--myself most certainly included and myself most certainly foremost--need this corrective.

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

Archangel,

You keep asking, "Why is the burden of proof on the one denying?" But we don't know if they are denying it. That was the point of Van's post, remember?

He wrote:

Based on two responses, can we conclude: (1) all the Calvinists posting on BB are hyper-Calvinists openly asserting exhaustive determinism or (2) the Calvinists posting on BB are unwilling to defend their doctrinal differences with the exhaustive determinists?

I simply agreed and made the point the Luke and Aaron appeared to be supporting exhaustive determinism proudly throughout several other thread...ones you admitted to not having read.

Now, if there is a Calvinist posting on BB (including you) who is willing to demonstrate their doctrinal differences with the exhaustive determinists quoted earlier, I'd be glad to hear it. Otherwise, this is a waste of time.

 

[Van]

Hi JesusFan, can you provide a biblical reference to the second part of your statement, the people were acting according to their own free will, because their actions had not been predetermined by God, Acts 2:23

Think Bible sums it up best when it declares that Jesus death on the Cross was foreordained/predetined by Will of God, but that the peoples doing that act were by their own choice "free will"

 

[JesusFan]

Peter remarks that though THEY had planned/purposed in their hearts to kill off the messiah, it was according to will/plan of God...
I do NOT believe God "forced" them to kill off Jesus, but that He USED that and it all fit into his predetermined plan of jesus death on the cross...

That would be a difference between "determinism" and "free will"

I do not hold that God forced them to kill Jesus, but that he already knew that they would do such, had the Plan all preordained/predestinated...

if he did "force" them, it would be to harden them off, just as he did pharoah AFTER he had already set himself up against God...

 

[webdog]

I would like to point out...that you would go crazy had one of us posted something like this about you...like:

"Skandelon, whether he knows it or admits it or not, is a Pelagian (or semi-Pelagian). So is __________ and a few others, I think."

Now, for the record, I am not calling your a Pelagian or a semi-Pelagian. I am merely using this as an example. Since you and others so vehemently hate it when we accuse you of something you deny being, you, at the very least, could "do unto others."

The Archangel

Hate to tell you this, but it happens...every day. Pelagian, open theist, heretic, self salvationist, you serve another god are all daily BB moniker's put on many of those like myself....even after being corrected and shown wrong.

 

[freeatlast]

Peter remarks that though THEY had planned/purposed in their hearts to kill off the messiah, it was according to will/plan of God...
I do NOT believe God "forced" them to kill off Jesus, but that He USED that and it all fit into his predetermined plan of jesus death on the cross...

That would be a difference between "determinism" and "free will"

I do not hold that God forced them to kill Jesus, but that he already knew that they would do such, had the Plan all preordained/predestinated...

if he did "force" them, it would be to harden them off, just as he did pharoah AFTER he had already set himself up against God...

How did God know? Did He look down through history?

 

[JesusFan]

How did God know? Did He look down through history?

God had his Son, Jesus, se tto die upon the Cross as an atonement before World was even created...

God planned out out what happened, shaping hidtory, using peoples etc

So he directly planned it to happen, just saying that he used people to fulfill His plan, and those he used chose to act the way that they did, God had their behavior set into what was predetermined to occur...

there is a tension between how much God "allows" us to do, and what his will and plans are...

Just saying that his will and purpose was acomplished, and it went EXACTLY as he planned it out, he was directly involved in bringing it to pass!

 

[freeatlast]

God had his Son, Jesus, se tto die upon the Cross as an atonement before World was even created...

God planned out out what happened, shaping hidtory, using peoples etc

So he directly planned it to happen, just saying that he used people to fulfill His plan, and those he used chose to act the way that they did, God had their behavior set into what was predetermined to occur...

there is a tension between how much God "allows" us to do, and what his will and plans are...

Just saying that his will and purpose was acomplished, and it went EXACTLY as he planned it out, he was directly involved in bringing it to pass!

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that He made them do it but they chose to do it and that is how he knew?

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan,

Peter remarks that though THEY had planned/purposed in their hearts to kill off the messiah, it was according to will/plan of God...
I do NOT believe God "forced" them to kill off Jesus, but that He USED that and it all fit into his predetermined plan of Jesus death on the cross...

That would be a difference between "determinism" and "free will"

I do not hold that God forced them to kill Jesus, but that he already knew that they would do such, had the Plan all preordained/predestined...

if he did "force" them, it would be to harden them off, just as he did pharaoh AFTER he had already set himself up against God...

I view this slightly differently. They did "deliver Him up and they did "disown" him, Acts 3:13-18, but they acted in ignorance, so their actions were caused by God - through a sort of hardening - to fulfill His foretold and predetermined plan. The answer to the Question, Who Killed Christ, is not the Jews who delivered Him, up, or the godless Romans, but God gave Him the fifth cup and our precious Jesus drank it full strength demonstrating His love for us.

God Bless

 

[JesusFan]

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that He made them do it but they chose to do it and that is how he knew?

This is VERY hard to explain, as there IS a biblical tension between Sovergnity of God and how much "free will" he has allowed to man...

just saying that God had planned/caused the events around the life and death of Jesus, but that everyone in it were not "puppets" in a play...

Those involved did what they wanted to do, and God did what he wanted to have done thru their actions!

 

[freeatlast]

This is VERY hard to explain, as there IS a biblical tension between Sovergnity of God and how much "free will" he has allowed to man...

just saying that God had planned/caused the events around the life and death of Jesus, but that everyone in it were not "puppets" in a play...

Those involved did what they wanted to do, and God did what he wanted to have done thru their actions!

I don't disagree with you. I was just seeking to understand what you were saying. Thank you for the response

 

[Van]

I disagree with the idea that God does not cause what He has predetermined to happen. Of course He does. This is easy to explain. There is no tension! It is a false dichotomy. God predestines some things, and allows man to exercise his will autonomously in areas He has chosen not to exhaustively predetermine.

 

[freeatlast]

I disagree with the idea that God does not cause what He has predetermined to happen. Of course He does. This is easy to explain. There is no tension! It is a false dichotomy. God predestines some things, and allows man to exercise his will autonomously in areas He has chosen not to exhaustively predetermine.

YES! :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

YES! :thumbs:

All depends on how much "free will" you see God allowing for people...

My understanding is that Nothing happens that is outside of God knowing beforehand, and also allowing it to occur.. and that whatever we do, he can override at any time, and all decisions will be "used" to fulfill his plans

So He knows all things, causes direct some things, and will always see His will come to pass, and He uses the decisions we make as part of the process...

God elects/ordains His own to salvation In Christ, and he is directly in control of all things , he is not fatally determine all things, He can chose to directly intervene at any time, and everything done is either directly caused or allowed...

 

[freeatlast]

All depends on how much "free will" you see God allowing for people...

My understanding is that Nothing happens that is outside of God knowing beforehand, and also allowing it to occur.. and that whatever we do, he can override at any time, and all decisions will be "used" to fulfill his plans

So He knows all things, causes direct some things, and will always see His will come to pass, and He uses the decisions we make as part of the process...

God elects/ordains His own to salvation In Christ, and he is directly in control of all things , he is not fatally determine all things, He can chose to directly intervene at any time, and everything done is either directly caused or allowed...

I can't buy that.

 

[Luke2427]

Based on two responses, can we conclude: (1) all the Calvinists posting on BB are hyper-Calvinists openly asserting exhaustive determinism or (2) the Calvinists posting on BB are unwilling to defend their doctrinal differences with the exhaustive determinists?

If you think that believing in the exhaustive sovereignty of God makes one a hyper-Calvinist then you are not educated enough to speak on these matters.

No one with any reputable theological education would consider one a HYPER who believes that God ordained and controls and brings to pass for his own purposes all things that ever come to pass.

That is NOT hyper-calvinism. It is CALVINISM plain and simple.

No one who does NOT believe this is a true Calvinist.

John Calvin certainly believed it.

This is the problem with baptistboard. There are too many people who have no education on these matters who have too much to say that is not so because they do not know what they are talking about.

 

[freeatlast]

It is interesting in all this that there will be an OP topic in this area and it ends up debating what is or is not hyper Calvinist. In looking up the definitions n the web there seems to be division as to who is and what is hyper Calvinism. I did find an article that i feel is good and perhaps for the sake of settling the issue of what is and is not hyper cal. it would be good to at least lead it and set the standards so as to keep with the OP.

Unfortunately, the label Hyper-Calvinist is used frequently in our day to insult or ridicule anyone who is more Calvinistic than oneself....
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/what-is-hyper-calvinism/

 

[webdog]

If you think that believing in the exhaustive sovereignty of God makes one a hyper-Calvinist then you are not educated enough to speak on these matters.

True...so please refrain from discussing matters that you are not familiar with. God desiring, ordaining and authoring sin is one of the traits of hyper-calvinism.