is the Holy Spirit a person

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by wopik:
Michael52
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Or better still, Wopik, try the Bible.

tragic_pizza

So the question is whether or not the Holy Spirit is an entity or a... concept?

(we must never ignor pizza's questions).

The Catholic Encyclopedia could have it right when it says the Holy Spirit is the Power of God.

The Bible does say just that: "And the angel answered and said unto her [Mary], 'The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you....' " -- Luke 1:35.

***********************************

"that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt 1: 18, 20). If the Holy Spirit "impregnated" Mary, this would be God's Power, not a third person.

For the Holy Spirit is not Jesus' father. God the Father is, through His Power, through His Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]I think it's important to remember that the Trinitarian doctrine allows for God in Three Persons (to quote my favorite hymn), not three separate entities operating independent of one another. In other words, there is an equality in fact, with an heirarchy in economy. Jesus did nothing without His Father's direction, and the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father and the Son" (Nicene Creed).

I don't really understand the confusion here. Old Testament references to the Spirit of God seemed to recognize the unique nature of the Spirit, as opposed to the theophanies of Isaiah, Moses, etc. Jesus seems to regard the Spirit as a unique entity, thus the masculine designation ("He" rather than "It"), and the subsequent testimony of the disciples appears to support that concept.

Is it a question of "Oneness" theology? Or simply an exercise at straining at a gnat, this fasciation with the nature of the third Person of the Trinity? I remain confused.

 

[Michael52]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
If I viewed the Everlasting as a concept, I'd be at best an agnostic, wouldn't I?

Yes, but as your subsequent post demonstrates, you are clearly not an agnostic.

Like you said in the 2nd post, "what's the big deal?" (my paraphrase). It seems clear to me that there are certainly scriptures, OT and NT, which speak of God's Holy Spirit as a force (physical? spiritual? both?) which emanates from God. However, there are scriptures which clearly describe the Holy Spirit as an entity ("personal") which is somehow separate from both the Father and the Son. I don't see how one could objectively deny this, unless he has a preconceived bias against it. If you read one place where God's Sprit is seeminly described as a possibly dependent force (but any "personal" attributes are not explicitly negated) and then read where the Holy Spirit is described with explicitly "personal" attributes (by Jesus, no-less), then it seems much safer to me to believe He is a person of the triune God.

(Obviously there are different "prescribed" doctrinal methods (confessions, words, whatever), peculiar to different denominations, to describe these concepts "just right". I think arguing over semantics is a sport for trivial people with too much time on there hands. Wait a minute...do I resemble that remark? Oh...good, I'm not currently wearing PJs!)

If one denies the traditional conceptions of the Trinity, it seems to me that it introduces some contradictions into the Bible that are hard to reconcile, unless one has an non-biblical agenda or bias which he is following or promoting.

Hey, tragic_pizza, maybe we have a particular favorite hymn in common?

[ October 05, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Michael52 ]

 

[Gup20]

It should also be noted that we are created in God's image... so if we use human emotions to describe a being, that being is probably somewhat like us.

To say the spirit of God is greived describes a human emotion. Since we are created in God's image, it is likely that if the spirit can be greived, and the spirit is part of the Trinity of God... that the spirit is a 'person' insomuch that we are also persons as we are created in that "person's" image.

 

[billwald]

Please define "person."

 

[Michael52]

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes &lt;chairperson&gt; &lt;spokesperson&gt;
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing &lt;unlawful search of the person&gt;
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

 

[Michael52]

Oops!

 

[tragic_pizza]

Michael, my favorite hymn is most certainly "Hol;y, Holy, Holy." A close second is "Joyful, Joyful." Both are God-centered exclamations of awe at the holiness and majesty of the Everlasting. It is a topic for another thread just why I'm so underwhelmed by the vast majority of modern "praise music."

I think the question you raise of a nonBiblical or extraBiblical agenda brings us back to the question of Oneness theology: is this in fact the opposing argument? Is denying the "Personhood" of the Holy Spirit an attempt in fact to make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three distinct Persons within the Godhead but one Person acting in three offices?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


Is denying the "Personhood" of the Holy Spirit an attempt in fact to make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three distinct Persons within the Godhead but one Person acting in three offices?

Tragic_pizza, has anyone proven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet?

MEE

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


Is denying the "Personhood" of the Holy Spirit an attempt in fact to make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three distinct Persons within the Godhead but one Person acting in three offices?

Tragic_pizza, has anyone proven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet?

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong question. Since orthodox Christianity has, for millenia now, accepted Scripture as indicative of a triune God, the burden of proof is upon the dissenter.

So: MEE, has anyone disproven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet?

 

[Gup20]

Wouldn't anything or anyone with self-awareness be considered a person?

For example, wouldn't angels, demons, God, Satan... all would be considered persons wouldn't they, because they are individually aware?

Star Trek calls it 'sentience', or being a sentient being.

Well using the 'star trek' version I guess the Holy Spirit is a person.

To "Catastrophic Italian Pie":
While I agree that the the Trinity is an accepted doctrine, I do not think it is helpful to understanding the issue to rely solely on 'an accepted truth' without knowing WHY it is accepted truth. While the onus would indeed be on MEE to tell us how the Godhead personage is DISproven, it should not be our only argument that 'we believe this because we have always believed this'. I think the people here understand THAT we believe the Holy Spirit is a person... we would like to know WHY we believe the Holy Spirit is a person.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Granted, Gup. I'm not really insisting that "because it's always been that way" is a reason to believe anything. It is, however, evidence of the burden of history being on the side of Trinitarians in any discussion of Oneness theology.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


Is denying the "Personhood" of the Holy Spirit an attempt in fact to make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three distinct Persons within the Godhead but one Person acting in three offices?

Tragic_pizza, has anyone proven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet?

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong question. Since orthodox Christianity has, for millenia now, accepted Scripture as indicative of a triune God, the burden of proof is upon the dissenter.

So: MEE, has anyone disproven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, it has been proven! The problem is that I'm not allowed to post 'links' or anything showing the 'Oneness' of God, according to the rules of the BB. The Oneness doctrine does not show three, just 'ONE' God.

Now, that being said, I just want to go back and watch you all trying to figure out the Godhead.

It's been interesting! I've learned quite a bit.

MEE

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


Is denying the "Personhood" of the Holy Spirit an attempt in fact to make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three distinct Persons within the Godhead but one Person acting in three offices?

Tragic_pizza, has anyone proven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet?

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong question. Since orthodox Christianity has, for millenia now, accepted Scripture as indicative of a triune God, the burden of proof is upon the dissenter.

So: MEE, has anyone disproven three 'persons' in the Godhead yet? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, it has been proven! The problem is that I'm not allowed to post 'links' or anything showing the 'Oneness' of God, according to the rules of the BB. The Oneness doctrine does not show three, just 'ONE' God.

Now, that being said, I just want to go back and watch you all trying to figure out the Godhead.

It's been interesting! I've learned quite a bit.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]OK, let me make sure I understand your post.

You're saying, "Yes, it's been proven, but I will not demonstrate how I came to the conclusion, or offer any substantial evidence as to the nature of this proof."

Is that pretty much your defense of this position?

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:

OK, let me make sure I understand your post.

You're saying, "Yes, it's been proven, but I will not demonstrate how I came to the conclusion, or offer any substantial evidence as to the nature of this proof."

Is that pretty much your defense of this position? [/QB][/QUOTE]

***No, that is not what I meant. You may have missed what I said. I said that the 'Baptist Board' will not let me use links or snips from any information that is documented, for the use of showing that there is only One God.

Tragic, I just can't see three or your trinity. I came here in hopes to see how you all get the belief of three and not one God.

MEE

 

[DHK]

MEE, Most of us can define the trinity in our own words, and use Scripture to back up what we say without going to outside links or copy and paste what other people say.

Our challenge to you is to define your position in your own words without posting a link, without copying and pasting, without quoting word for word. A noted Christian, Paul E. Little, wrote two significant books. The first is entitled "Know What you Believe." The second is "Know Why You Believe." Do you know why you believe what you believe, other than the reason that you have been spoon-fed the things that you believe? If so, explain what you believe, and then give a reason for your beliefs.
DHK

 

[danrusdad]

MEE,

Do you believe Jesus is God? It sounds like you don't. If you do believe Jesus is God and the Father is God, there is no logical problem with believeing the HS is God too.

We do believe in one God, but that one God has three distinct personalities: father, son and holy spirit.

One what, three whos.

Just because all of God's created being have only one who per what, does not automatically mean that that's the way it always has to be.

Scripture is clear about God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit. But still one GOD.

 

[Gup20]

Just as humans are triune (body, soul, spirit) so also is the Godhead (we were after all created in his image) Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

We are unable to separate the tree parts ourselves from each other. God doesn't separate himself either, yet the three representations manifest in distinctly different realms.

This is demonstrated quite clearly in Jesus' Death on the cross. Because of Adam's sin, and the curse of death, humans die on this earth. When we die, our spirit and soul are separated from our body. When Jesus experienced human death, he too was - for the first time ever - separated from God as he took the sin of the world onto himself.

Fortuneately, he was re-united after he took the keys to sin and death away from the Devil in hell. Those who beleive in Jesus can recieve the same re-unification to God (with new bodies) as Jesus did.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Ummmmmm... so who did Jesus pray to on earth?

 

[wopik]

Ummmmmm... so who did Jesus pray to on earth?

The real Holy Father, in Heaven - Jn 17: 11

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by wopik:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ummmmmm... so who did Jesus pray to on earth?

The real Holy Father, in Heaven - Jn 17: 11 </font>[/QUOTE]Which returns us to a Trinitarian interpretation of Scripture. Were God a singular entity, jesus would have been praying to nothing, and the Spirit, Who descended upon Jesus at His baptism, would have been a figment of someone's imagination.