Is the Holy Spirit the Restrainer?

[Tom Butler]

Just as Jesus gave permission for Judas to do what he had to do so does the Holy Spirit give permission for Satan to bring in the Great Tribulation.

Just as God had created the Earth He had to give nature permission to destroy the world with water. The Creator removed Himself for creation to bring chaos.

God let creation wreck havoc on the Earth.

Jesus let Judas set up His betrayal.

The Holy Spirit will let Satan try His Church that is lukewarm and very worldly.

In II Th 2:7 "let" does not mean allow (as we use it today). It means restrain. I'm sure you know that, and are making a different point.

 

[Allan]

If you claim ignorance on this passage 2 Thes 2:7ff you will join a great host of Bible expoistors, theologians and me. It is the most difficult passage of Paul's writings, even Peter was baffled (2 Peter 3:16).

It is the Scofield Reference Bible which profers the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer......Most reliable commentators rather circumvent this passage.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, just who do you consider 'reliable' commentators - those who agree with you?

And the other great host of bible expositors and theologians have been trying to get them to understand that it isn't all that difficult to grasp.

 

[Marcia]

My take on John 3:8 is that the "thou" which cannot hear the sound of the wind or tell where it comes from, is likened to one who is born of the Spirit. We who are born of the Spirit will remember that suddenly it was there. We didn't hear it coming, we don't know where it came from. Regeneration is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks for your take on the indwelling Spirit and the omnipresence of the Spirit. I'm still listening

Thanks! I'm not sure I can add much to what I said. But I think the Holy Spirit working through believers partly restrains sin in the world, because we are saved from the power of sin (not that we don't sin).

I can tell the difference almost right away if I'm at a gathering where I'm the only believer or at a gathering where everyone or most of the people are believers. The Holy Spirit is present when the unbelievers are gathered, because He's omnipresent, but He is not indwelling them and their actions/words reveal that.

My ministry takes me into some interesting places - like a witchcraft shop where I ended up conversing with the owner and a Wiccan customer for 45 min. In moments like that, I am incredibly aware of the Holy Spirit indwelling me and the lack of His presence in unbelievers. Just multiply that worldwide.

 

[saturneptune]

Whether restrained or held back, or whatever Satan is doing or not doing at the moment, the origin is the will of God, and how He is working out His purposes.

 

[Marcia]

The passage speaks of the "man of lawlessness" being restrained, so it raises the question of who that is. I don't think it's Satan because it's a "man."

 

[Me4Him]

In the "God head", Jesus, as Jesus, didn't speak in the OT, he was known as the Angels of God/Lord", his name was a "Secret", Jews still refer to him as "Hashem" or "the name".

The "Comforter" was sent "in my name", Jesus, the Holy "GHOST" is the "Ghost of Jesus" speaking.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

Israel rejected God speaking directly to them at Mt Sinai,

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

And again when they rejected God speaking directly to them through Jesus.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

This "comforter" is the only thing in the world that is "Greater than Satan".

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you,

2Co 13:5 Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you,

And being made "members" of the "body of Christ", Satan can't have "power/dominion" over "Christ's Body".

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ro 6:14 For sin (or Satan) shall not have dominion over you:

The Comforter arrived on the day of "pentecost" and the "Last trump" of the voice of Jesus will call the dead from their graves, change the living, and take them to where he is, Heaven, for the "lamb's Marriage supper".

God will go back to speaking by "prophets" (two witnesses) to Israel during the trib.

The "Trinity" explains scripture as well as the "God head".

 

[Palatka51]

In II Th 2:7 "let" does not mean allow (as we use it today). It means restrain. I'm sure you know that, and are making a different point.

Tom, if that is what let means then let at one time meant to tie up or bind? I hardly think so. However restrain still works as Satan tried to have Jesus killed several times before the cross.

By Herod at His birth. Satan still tried but could not touch Him as He was protected.

By temptation in the wilderness as Satan suggested that He jump from the temple spire. Jesus hindered him by His Word.

By mob as the Pharisees wanted to take Him and cast Him down a cliff. He just slipped out of their midst. And the same happened when they wanted to stone Him.

Only until Jesus told Judas to go do what he must do and to do it quickly did He remove His own protection from harm.

He let, allowed or removed the restraint and that restraint was Himself.

 

[Allan]

Rather than intrude into the debate in the thread Pre-Trib Rapture: Biblical Truth or Dispensational Fiction, I want to discuss (actually ask some questions) about the Dispy view that the Restrainer in II Thessalonians 2:7 (him who letteth) is the Holy Spirit.

Let's kick the tires and lit fires big daddy! :thumbsup:

As I understand it, the Dispy view is that when the rapture occurs, and the church is taken out, the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers (The "Church) is taken out with it.

This gives rise to my questions:

Who is the one who takes the Holy Spirit out of the way? The verse says he who restrains is taken out of the way. To be taken, there as to be a taker. Who takes God the Sovereign, Omnipotent Holy Spirit out of the way? Can't the Holy Spirit take himself out of the way?

Marcia answered this fairly well. His being taken out of the way is a reference to His obedience to the will of God. It is God's will and decree that He is responding to and though He is the one doing the leaving it is at the beckoning of the Fathers will and purpose.

Does the view I have stated mean that the HS is confined to believers? Isn't he everywhere? Certainly he indwells believers today. But don't we also speak of the Holy Spirit being with us? Do we not talk about the Holy Spirit being present in our worship services.

Is not the Holy Spirit both everywhere AND specifically indwelling believers?
Is He not God who is both in Heaven and literally also in and amounst His people?

We, as the Bible does, speak of people being filled with the Holy Spirit, even though he is already in us.

The phrase "be filled" speaks specifically to being controlled by. Thus the verse which says "do not be filled/controlled with wine wich comes about by excess, but be filled with the Spirit [which also comes only through excess]. The term filled here express the sense of being completely full of something so that when it does anything the object which contains is influenced in variable ways.

Illistration:
Take a glass and fill it with water to the brim (this is filled).
Now if the water is stationary. The glass is stationary. But move the water so that it sloshes around pretter good and then take you hand off of the glass. The glass will continue moving, shaking so long as the water in it is moving. Now if the water could move on it's own the glass would practically do whatever the water chose to make it do. Move, fall, break - whatever.

We even pray for God to pour out the Holy Spirit on (fill in the blank--me, us, our church, our nation, pour out revival on a people.

This is something I don't do. Reason- God has already poured out His Spirit upon His people and His Spirit has already been working in and throughout the ages from the OT even till now. I understand their meaning in praying this (to move and empower) I just don't use this phrasing. It is much akin to asking God to protect us even though He has already promised to do so,

Did not Jesus liken the Holy Spirit with the wind, which goes where it wants to?

I agree with Marcia here to

Another question: If believers are raptured into the presence of God, and the Son who sits at his right hand, is there a further need for the indwelling at that point?

Nope. It will be no different than in the OT. We find no where in the OT that Spirit of God indwelt men but we do find were saved men had the Spirit of God come 'upon' then AND leave.

I am curious who the Restrainer is. I've seen one view that it is Michael the Archangel; another that it is the church which restains Satan, although it didn't seem to restrain Hitler and Stalin.

The scripture states "he" (masculine) so that of itself disqualifies the Church which is always refered to as a she. It also disqualifies the "laws of the land" veiw as well because it is refering to a person - he.

 

[Tom Butler]

Give me a break. Can't make it fit. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee. Clever trap but no cigar.
.

Well, I'm just hurt. Hurt, I tell ya'. You think my questions were setting a trap? Moi?

Wait a minute. You said clever. In that case, never mind. And thanks.

 

[Tom Butler]

His being taken out of the way is a reference to His obedience to the will of God. It is God's will and decree that He is responding to and though He is the one doing the leaving it is at the beckoning of the Fathers will and purpose.

If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, then I can see how you reach that conclusion.

I

Is not the Holy Spirit both everywhere AND specifically indwelling believers?
Is He not God who is both in Heaven and literally also in and amoungst His people?

That's what I think, too. I was looking for an explanation why the HS leaves when the saints leave. He doesn't have to because he can be everywhere. But dispies say he leaves. None I have read say he sticks around.

The phrase "be filled" speaks specifically to being controlled by. Thus the verse which says "do not be filled/controlled with wine wich comes about by excess, but be filled with the Spirit [which also comes only through excess]. The term filled here express the sense of being completely full of something so that when it does anything the object which contains is influenced in variable ways.

I see it your way, too.

You answered re my comment about praying that God will pour out his Spirit on us:

This is something I don't do. Reason- God has already poured out His Spirit upon His people and His Spirit has already been working in and throughout the ages from the OT even till now. I understand their meaning in praying this (to move and empower) I just don't use this phrasing. It is much akin to asking God to protect us even though He has already promised to do so,

I understand your reasoning. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.

I agree with Marcia here to

I disagree with you and Marsha re: interpretation of John 3:8

The scripture states "he" (masculine) so that of itself disqualifies the Church which is always refered to as a she. It also disqualifies the "laws of the land" veiw as well because it is refering to a person - he.

I agree. Those who think it's the archangel Michael cite Daniel 12:1-3 to support their view. I'm not sure. If it's the Holy Spirit, then how are people saved if he's not around? the first teaching I ever heard on dispensationalism was that no Gentiles would be saved during the tribulation--only Jews. But not by the work of the Holy Spirit--some other way.

 

[Me4Him]

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (OT/Holy "SPIRIT")


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (Jesus/comforter/Holy "GHOST").

The "HOLY SPIRIT" was in the OT, but not the "Holy "GHOST".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Satan, the "Oppressor" is "GIVEN" power over all people, tongues and nations during the trib, he can't "reign" as the "supreme" power over the earth as long as the "Comforter" is present in the world,

This is why "HE" (comforter) must be "taken out of the way", "FIRST", before the "first seal is opened".

The first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy was without a "Comforter", and the last week will be too.

If you'll keep the Spirit/Comforter "IN CONTEXT" of the "TRINITY", scripture is easier to understand.

 

[Jim1999]

quote: The "HOLY SPIRIT" was in the OT, but not the "Holy "GHOST".

So, now we have a 4th person in the trinity?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Me4Him]

quote: The "HOLY SPIRIT" was in the OT, but not the "Holy "GHOST".

So, now we have a 4th person in the trinity?

Cheers,

Jim

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The "GHOST" of Jesus didn't indwell/lead/guide people in the OT, God's "SPIRIT" spoke through "prophets",

God's "SPIRIT" now speaks through Jesus/Comforter or the "Ghost of Jesus". (Holy Ghost)

Same Spirit, as Jesus is the same God.

 

[Palatka51]

I saw a cat sitting just out of the reach of a leashed dog. Confident that the leash would hold back the dog, the cat began cleaning itself after the manner of all cats by licking it's paws. The dog was bound and determined to get that cat.

Time after time the dog would growl and bark at the cat just outside his reach, while stretching and twisting the *leash. Day in and day out the dog would get a running start and lunge at the cat only to have the leash come tight and snatch him back with a yelp of pain from the tightening collar around his neck, yet the dog never gave up his nature to chase and catch that cat.

One day the cat walked up to start the day's routine of taunting and daring the dog to catch him. Stopping at the same exact spot it settles in and starts the habit of self cleaning. The dog begins a low throaty growl. He snarls and hunches down reading himself for that run and lunge. Could this be his day?

Licking it's paws and rubbing it's face, the cat is sure that the dog could never reach him. He had never noticed that the leash had become frayed from all the twisting and stretching of the dog. He would have warned the master that the dog was about to get loose and sought a tall tree for refuge. The master would make sure that the leash remained strong but the cat was more concerned over the beautiful coat that he took so much pride in keeping clean.

At the first when the cat had approached the dog he became very afraid bushed up his tail and ran for the nearest tree. Looking down from the tree he saw that the dog was on a leash that he could not over come. Soon he had learned the dog's limit and trusted his pride and lost his fear. So involved in his self cleaning, he had become deaf to the deep snarling growl of the dog or the claws gripping the earth as each leg became tensed to lunge at the cat.

SNAP!! The leash broke!

The cat heard the snap but it was too late, he was now in a scramble for his very life. Fur is flying everywhere, "My coat my beautiful coat", he thinks. The dog in a fury shakes and snarls as he grips the cat firmly in his jaws.

Hearing the growling the hissing and the cries of the doomed cat, the master rushes out of his house and subdues and secures the dog and rescues the cat from near death. Taking the cat into his home he nourishes it back to health and the cat never approaches that dog again. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[MB]

Who else but God could restrain sin and evil?.

Who else but God is Omnipresent so as to be here to restrain sin and evil when it's about to happen?.

When men can be over come by sin and angles can be over come. Who has the strength needed to stand against Satan. I my self can't do it alone. who can? Who else has the power do such a thing.
The Holy Spirit certainly has the highest probablity. He has the power. He has the omnipresence. He cannot be removed as long as He is our conforter unless we are taken with Him.
Who can remove Him? The Father, The God head.
MB

 

[Jim1999]

It would be simple to believe the Holy Spirit as restrainng the 'forces of evil" except for one statement: "until he be taken out of the way." This makes it impossible to be the Holy Spirit.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Tom Butler]

I still am having trouble with the notion that the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, and suddenly not be omnipresent.

What we have is that the Holy Spirit is now everywhere, including indwelt in believers. Then presto! He's gone. That seems like a change in the unchangeable God the Holy Spirit.

I still don't understand why the Holy Spirit, who is everywhere including the hearts of believers, must suddenly not be everywhere, but gone with the saints at the rapture. Can't he do both?

If its a question of withdrawing his restraining hand on the forces of Satan, can't he do that without leaving?--by simply willing it so? Or simply allowing Satan to act and the Anti-christ to rise to power. The same way God the Father allowed Satan to attack Job.

But Tom but Tom but Tom, The Holy Spirit must leave because the verse says he has to be taken out of the way. Well, that's assuming it is the HS. Surely would have been nice if Paul had simply called the Restrainer the Holy Spirit in the first place. Whatsa matta witch-oo, Paul?

 

[Tom Butler]

Who else but God could restrain sin and evil?.

Who else but God is Omnipresent so as to be here to restrain sin and evil when it's about to happen?.

When men can be over come by sin and angles can be over come. Who has the strength needed to stand against Satan. I my self can't do it alone. who can? Who else has the power do such a thing.
The Holy Spirit certainly has the highest probablity. He has the power. He has the omnipresence. He cannot be removed as long as He is our conforter unless we are taken with Him.
Who can remove Him? The Father, The God head.
MB

I don't know who the Restrainer is, but your answer has some logic to it.

But I'm having difficulty with this image of God the Father bossing around God the Holy Spirit. I also don't see why the HS has to be removed by the Father. Isn't the HS sovereign and omnipotent?

 

[Tom Butler]

It would be simple to believe the Holy Spirit as restrainng the 'forces of evil" except for one statement: "until he be taken out of the way." This makes it impossible to be the Holy Spirit.

Cheers,

Jim

I like where you wind up, but how did you get there?

 

[Allan]

It would be simple to believe the Holy Spirit as restrainng the 'forces of evil" except for one statement: "until he be taken out of the way." This makes it impossible to be the Holy Spirit.

Cheers,

Jim

I think you guys are looking at this from the stand point of being removed all together. No Pretrib Dispy believes this.

The answer is bound up in a two fold explanation regarding the work and funtionality of the Holy Spirit IN THIS aspect.
NOTE- in the KJV "Holy Spirit" was used when speaking of the Spirit but not specifically a location. The term "Holy Ghost" was used to to indicate a Him in a particular location (thus a ghost known to be in a particular place or state and spirit is spoken of as something that is anywhere and everywhere.)

The phrase 'taken out of the way' is directly addressing 'a' function described of the Holy Spirit. Notice it doesn't literally state who is restraining but is indicating a title directly related to their function. Example - we can speak of a pastor and never use his name but the title always us to know what he does and thus (presumably) who he is.

So The Restrainer is to be taken out of the way - IOW - Letting loose that which which he was holding back - restraining. So "taken out of the way" indicates a releasing of something. This is part of His function in the world - holding sin and evil at bay.

NOW - the second part - How does He do this.
1. He does does it through His power being God Himself; and...
2. He uses the Church as the vehicle of the function through whom He is empowering.

The Church is the physical or manifested reason evil and sin can not become and be all that it could in our world. It is being restrained by God through His people.

**Thus** if the restrainers power is withdrawn so that evil and sin may abound to do and fulfill all manner of desires, BUT the church is still here.. then you have God removing His power from the Church who is the vehicle of restraint in the world and the Church will be overcome.

However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and He is taken out of the way (this refers to holding back the progress of sin and evil to dominate) then the Church to must be removed in order for God's promise to never fail. BUT .. this taking away DOES NOT mean He does not still work and opperate in the world. ONLY His functionality as the restrainer of sin and evil and all that is bound up with it. Thus sin and evil have full reign and dominion to now rule.


He is not removed from the earth as in not here at all, the restrainer refering to His function as the restrainer (which includes that which was used to restrain) is take out of the way. It is for this reason that The Antichrist (who is a singular man) will be revealed and the very reason he can now rule and make war against the remaining saints AND PREVAIL. (which is completely contradictory to the promise to the Church)

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.