Is the Holy Spirit the Restrainer?

[Allan]

I don't know who the Restrainer is, but your answer has some logic to it.

But I'm having difficulty with this image of God the Father bossing around God the Holy Spirit. I also don't see why the HS has to be removed by the Father. Isn't the HS sovereign and omnipotent?

Tom, God the Father isn't bossing anyone around.

Christ submitted Himself to the Father. Why?
It was so planned and purposed by the all the Trinity.

God the Holy Spirit also is submitting Himself to the Father because there is a purpose and plan which THEY established and created.
Example - Does the Spirit of God lead men to places the Father would not have them go just because He is sovereign and omnipotent? Of course not. He makes intercession for us because He knows the Fathers will and our hearts.

 

[Allan]

I agree. Those who think it's the archangel Michael cite Daniel 12:1-3 to support their view. I'm not sure. If it's the Holy Spirit, then how are people saved if he's not around? the first teaching I ever heard on dispensationalism was that no Gentiles would be saved during the tribulation--only Jews. But not by the work of the Holy Spirit--some other way.

That is 'one' view of Dispensationalism but it is more a midtrib view.

For those who hold to a midtrib rature that is what they typically conclude because the they assume the Spirit of God is actaully completely removed from planet earth. Which of course is an impossiblity being omnipresent There are other passages they cite to but they do not hold water contextually. The only two most valid biblical view are either Pre or Post Rature with (I believe) Pre having more support scripturally than Post.



With regard to Michael being the restrainer and the passage of Danial.
What you will find in scripture is that Michael is the protector of the Jewish People and is always found defending them. Even in the NT when you read of him ONLY once in Jude (The Rev passage refers to the fight in heaven) he is seen contending over the body of Moses - a Jew. This is why Michael is seen as the Nation of Israel guardian angel or worrior angel who is 'apparently' assigned to protect Israel in accordance with the Fathers will.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think you guys are looking at this from the stand point of being removed all together. No Pretrib Dispy believes this.

Well, some do, because that's what I was taught. Specifically, if you miss the rapture and you're left behind, you have no hope of being saved because the Holy Spirit is gone.

Specifically, I was taught that only Jews will be saved during the tribulation. Such as the 144,000 flaming Jewish evangelists. And those Jews who will see Jesus come at the end of the tribulation. But I could never get it straight how they were to be saved, except that it was different from the way Gentiles were saved prior to the rapture.

In later years, some Dispies said, no, Gentiles can be saved during the tribulation.

I suppose that it's probable that Dispies can disagree among themselves on some matters. But this seems to be a major difference.

Can you see why my brain locks up when trying to understand?

 

[Palatka51]

I still am having trouble with the notion that the Holy Spirit, who is omnipresent, and suddenly not be omnipresent.

What we have is that the Holy Spirit is now everywhere, including indwelt in believers. Then presto! He's gone. That seems like a change in the unchangeable God the Holy Spirit.

I still don't understand why the Holy Spirit, who is everywhere including the hearts of believers, must suddenly not be everywhere, but gone with the saints at the rapture. Can't he do both?

If its a question of withdrawing his restraining hand on the forces of Satan, can't he do that without leaving?--by simply willing it so? Or simply allowing Satan to act and the Anti-christ to rise to power. The same way God the Father allowed Satan to attack Job.

But Tom but Tom but Tom, The Holy Spirit must leave because the verse says he has to be taken out of the way. Well, that's assuming it is the HS. Surely would have been nice if Paul had simply called the Restrainer the Holy Spirit in the first place. Whatsa matta witch-oo, Paul?

What did Jesus use to restrain Satan in the wilderness temptation? His Word.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

In the analogy of the dog and cat I set a star (*) by the word leash. because it signifies the point I was hoping someone would catch. Satan uses the Word even while it restrains him. He stretches it, bends and contorts its meaning to the point that he might deceive even the very elect but that is not possible. He used it here against Jesus. That attack failed. He used it against Eve and that attack was successful. He has be using that tactic ever sense.

The Church has had the Holy Spirit to show them the truth of God's Word.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

However there is a time when there shall come a famine or removal of the Word of God.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

Notice that when this happens that the people will turn to the false god of Dan. (In some circles it is suggested that the Antichrist is a descendant of the tribe of Dan. I do not yet ascribe to that interpretation).

And when it is come Satan's deception will be very strong.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The leash is the Word and the holder of the leash is the Holy Spirit.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Thus The Word of God comes by the Holy Spirit and as such He is holding the "leash" that restrains or better, lets Satan loose.

 

[Palatka51]

Now, can anyone tell me who the cat and dog are?

 

[Me4Him]

Well, some do, because that's what I was taught. Specifically, if you miss the rapture and you're left behind, you have no hope of being saved because the Holy Spirit is gone.

Maybe this will help you out.

Israel was married to God, so to be married to another, God or Israel will have to die to be free from the "law".

Israel, as the "MOTHER" of the "Man Child" can't attend "HER SON'S MARRIAGE" as "HIS BRIDE". (Church rapture)

"IF" Israel is "DEAD" to the law, that is "BORN AGAIN", a "NEW CREATURE", then the "Mother" is dead and she can marry another. (Jesus)


Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The "SON" can't have his "Father's "WIFE".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Only "Believers" can attend the "Lamb's marriage supper", (Rapture)

the Breach between God and Israel is healed during the trib, not before, reason they're blinded until fulness of the church.

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

Israel, world, goes back under the "LAW" (and prophet) (Two witnesses) during the trib,

and as "CHASTISEMENT/STRIPES" they must literally "crucify the body of sin" (die) for their "Spiritual Adultery", if they chose to be saved.

The AC/Satan are used by God as a "ROD" to chastise, When Moses cast his rod "down to the earth", it turned into a "Serpent", and God's rod will also turn into a "Serpent".

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

To be saved, the Body of sin must die, for Believer, Jesus suffer the "Chastisment/Stripes" in his flesh/body, we die "Spiritually".

For Israel, or anyone else, during the trib their body of sin (flesh) will Literally die by the "Chastisement/Stripes" from "God's Rod" to be saved, or "Married to Jesus".

Re 13:15 and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Getting Israel to change from "Mother" to "Bride" is what the trib all about, or anyone else who wants to be a "Bride".

Actually "All flesh", saved/lost, is delivered to Satan to "Devour", none survive except Jesus returns.

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4him,

Nice try. I got lost, trying to figure out what you said.

 

[Amy.G]

Me4him,

Nice try. I got lost, trying to figure out what you said.

I was just thinking the same thing. :laugh:

The pre-trib/pre-mil, dispensational doctrine must be an elite club. I do not possess the intelligence to figure it all out. I guess I've been under the mistaken view that God wanted us to understand His word.

 

[Me4Him]

Me4him,

Nice try. I got lost, trying to figure out what you said.

Study the "Principle/Precept" of "CHASTISEMENT", here's you some "Starter verses".


2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (wicked people)

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.


Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Ps 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

The Assyrian/Nebuchadnezzar/Rome have been used as "RODS" to chastise,

The AC is next on the list.

 

[Jim1999]

Why can't it be as simple as a world leader raised to ultimate power and controlling the universe. He rules the world with an iron hand, disposing of all in his way, and ruling.........until he be taken out of the way.....

I think we need to go back and study the Godhead and the function of each person of the Godhead.

This ruler is directly under the control of the devil himself. Go back and think about Hitler and the second world war. He came very close to controlling the world,,,,,,,but he was taken out of the way and eventually the free world won that battle.......now transfer the thought to Roman times and how the dictator was bringing the rest of that world into subjection,,,,,,,,,We will allow you to function, but you can only do it my way.

In the end, GOOD will overcome EVIL, and God will bring all into subjection under His power as Jesus continues to rule at His right hand and the Holy Spirit does these things as the activating hand of the Father.

Just a thought, and to my mind, it fits with all the pertinent scriptures.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[MB]

It would be simple to believe the Holy Spirit as restrainng the 'forces of evil" except for one statement: "until he be taken out of the way." This makes it impossible to be the Holy Spirit.

Cheers,

Jim

Where does scripture say that? Why would you think so.
MB

 

[Jim1999]

2 Thess 2:7....The verses we have been discussing all along.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[MB]

I don't know who the Restrainer is, but your answer has some logic to it.

But I'm having difficulty with this image of God the Father bossing around God the Holy Spirit. I also don't see why the HS has to be removed by the Father. Isn't the HS sovereign and omnipotent?

Tom it isn't a matter of being bossed around. The three are one God. There is cooperation between the three personages. There has to be other wise there could be nothing but confusion. God certainly is in agreement with Himself. It would be ridiculous to assume He is ever in disagreement with Himself. My Brain controls my body yet that doesn't make my body any less significant.
MB

 

[MB]

2 Thess 2:7....The verses we have been discussing all along.

Cheers,

Jim

There is no man capable of controlling sin. That word "let" suggest control. If this person let's then he must also restrain.

The Christians of the world together with the Holy Spirit restrains sin, Because the Holy Spirit works through those whom He dwells with. As time goes by man becomes more and more sinful. Just when you think it can't get any worse there is something else on the horizon. This is because the restrainer lets it happen a little at a time according to God's plan.

If sin wasn't controled God would of had to destroy the world long ago. As Satan wears us down making us numb to the things that are going on around us our morals wax worse gradually.

In the time of Christ Women coverd their bodies and over time they got away with wearing less and less. Thus more and more sin. Today our children dress like prostitutes.

If it were up to Satan every evil he could think of would would be happening all the time.
If you have any evidence that some evil man controls how much sin is in the world. Please settle the matter and show it.
MB

 

[Jim1999]

Sin or sins? There is the sin that overcame us all and that had nothing to do with the sins we commit almost daily if not daily. The one sin Christ took care of on the cross. The sins continue so long as we are people.

In this same sense "sin" can and is controlled by a leader of a nation. The Roman emperor did it in his time; Hitler did it in his time; man continues to do it in our time.

Verse 7 talks about " for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one that now holds it back will continue to do so tl he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow...and destroy by the splendour of His coming..." (NIV)

So, political powers can put obstacles in front of even sins by establishing his own dictates.

The lawless one is destroyed by Jesus at His coming and not by "removing the one who lets..." How can this be the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit cannot be removed.

The passage bet applies to this form of governmental control, in my mind, and best explains this passage.

I bow to the greater students than me and all the briliant expositors who say this is the toughest section of the NT to understand and they reluctantly offer a definitive understanding.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Me4Him]

So, political powers can put obstacles in front of even sins by establishing his own dictates.

Cheers,

Jim

This "New World Order" being created by the "Banking Institution" is an attempt by "MAN" to subject everyone in the world to their "Authority",

When you control the Financial system, you control "Everything".

"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all commerce and industry."
President James A. Garfield


"History shows that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit and violent means possible to maintain control over governments by controlling the money and the issuance of it."
President James A. Madison


The AC will seize control of this NWO, uprooting three in the process, and they can not stop him.

Their attempt to "Dig a pit" for us, and lead us into "their captivity", Backfires on them, by having to take the "Mark of the Beast" they are led into the "Captivity/Pit of "hell".

Pr 26:27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein:
Re 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:

As Haman build a Gallows to hang Mordecai, then was hung himself by the gallows he build, so are the men who organize this "NWO".

The point is all the powers of the world can not stop Satan/AC,

God is the one giving this "Supreme power" over "ALL" people/tongues/nations, to Satan,

and to make that possible, the "Comforter" is "taken out of the way".

 

[Jim1999]

At what point n history is God..the Holy Spirt...taken out?

I am still puzzled!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[MB]

Sin or sins? There is the sin that overcame us all and that had nothing to do with the sins we commit almost daily if not daily. The one sin Christ took care of on the cross. The sins continue so long as we are people.

I think you mean in this flesh not people. If si agreed

In this same sense "sin" can and is controlled by a leader of a nation. The Roman emperor did it in his time; Hitler did it in his time; man continues to do it in our time.

These men did not control evil they couldn't even control themselves. No man stands against Satan alone and stands. Satan will knock him down and over come Him.

Verse 7 talks about " for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;

Yes it is.

but the one that now holds it back will continue to do so tl he is taken out of the way.

True and no man has ever lived that long has they?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow...and destroy by the splendour of His coming..." (NIV)

The reason the Lawless one is revealed is because the restrainer who kept him from tempting us all has been removed. Now the Lawless one has free reign.

So, political powers can put obstacles in front of even sins by establishing his own dictates.

The lawless one is destroyed by Jesus at His coming and not by "removing the one who lets..." How can this be the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit cannot be removed.

If we are raptured the Holy Spirit will be removed as the restrainer

The passage bet applies to this form of governmental control, in my mind, and best explains this passage.

I bow to the greater students than me and all the briliant expositors who say this is the toughest section of the NT to understand and they reluctantly offer a definitive understanding.

Cheers,

Jim

I don't see anything hard to understand here. I don't know who said that but it wasn't me. Men cannot hold back sin because man is full of sin.
That would be like trying to dam up a river with water Just doesn't work
MB

 

[MB]

At what point n history is God..the Holy Spirt...taken out?

I am still puzzled!

Cheers,

Jim

During the rapture. This is why the tribulation is what it is.
MB

 

[Jim1999]

What rapture?

Cheers,

Jim