is the NEW nature In Christ the Holy Spirit Indwelling us?

[convicted1]

I would say he was in likeness of sinful flesh, made sin for us. Why?
So he could die for you and me.

I agree that He came in the flesh for us, because He was/is our sacrificial Lamb. But He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was/is the spotless Lamb of God.

That is what a living soul is. A living soul is sinful flesh. Adam was made a living soul he sinned and became sinful flesh and brought death and corruption and all have sinned that have been born of woman since Adam except Jesus yet he being in sinful flesh died.

A living soul is a soul saved by God. The dead becomes dead in sins and trespasses when God imputes sin unto it. It needs to be restored by God, and is brought back to life. The soul is the inner man, and is not part of the physical body.

Adam was made subject to death for God knew he would disobey. The plan for the Lamb (And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb, as a man) to be slain was in the mind of God before the man was created.

I would agree with this.

Through the Christ coming in the flesh (as a man begotten of God) God was going to destroy Satan, who has the power of death, through deceit and sin, by the death of one begotten of God and born of woman dying, the penalty (wages) of sin. Ceasing to be, dead, separated from God his Father forever.

Agreed.

It is through the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit to the Lamb of God who died for you and me that Satan, death and sin is destroyed and is the manner by which the sons of Adam are saved. It is by the resurrection of the only begotten Son of God and he receiving the Promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father that it can be given to you a living soul that will die, unless Christ returns during your life, that guarantees you that you will, like the only begotten Son, be resurrected to eternal life in the image of the Son of God.

The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.

You have eternal life, in Christ by having the Holy Spirit of promise from God.

Col. 3:3,4 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

You the once living soul, now dead will be resurrected or changed to eternal life at the appearing of Christ and his kingdom.

The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.(I cut and copied this again to save time in this post)

2 Tim 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


convicted1 this for you also

We will be judged? I think it is more like our sentence is rendered by the Judge. When we are resurrected, we will be either a Sheep or goat. We have been judged either "guilty" or "not guilty" when our soul leaves our body. In Luke 16, when Lazarus and the rich man died, one went up, the other down, as soon as they died. Some will be found "not guilty" and the other "guilty" as soon as they died. Now, they are in their respective "holding cell" till the Judge comes, and then those who died lost, will come out of hell, and tossed in the lake of fire, to torment forever. Those who died saved, they will be given their new spiritual body, and gathered into heaven, to be with God for eternity.

 

[convicted1]

Quick note, Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us. This just another example of picking one verse, and one variant of that verse over the other variant and over the many verses that say Jesus became a sin offering.

Oh yes Jesus did become sin for us. Every sin past, present, and future were placed upon Him, and He took all of them to the cross and nailed them to the cross. He, Himself, was sinless, but became sin for us. IOW, He bore our iniquities upon His flesh on the cross.

Here is an OT "type" of Christ:

Leviticus 16:20-22
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

So, eventhough Jesus was truly not a goat, He became one for us.

 

[percho]

I agree that He came in the flesh for us, because He was/is our sacrificial Lamb. But He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was/is the spotless Lamb of God.




A living soul is a soul saved by God. The dead becomes dead in sins and trespasses when God imputes sin unto it. It needs to be restored by God, and is brought back to life. The soul is the inner man, and is not part of the physical body.

(I am not sure sin is imputed. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.)
___________________________________________________________________________



I would agree with this.




Agreed.





The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.

(And all this time I thought Satan was lying when he said, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Gen. 3:4) (He was right all along living souls don't die, and I must not have misunderstood what God meant when he said twice, "The soul that sins it shall die.")
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.(I cut and copied this again to save time in this post)

(Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
On the Blue Letter Bible site there are 14 translations that I can read and understand and not a one of them translate "ruwach " Hebrew רוּחַ as soul.
OT soul, as living soul Gen. 2:7 nephesh being the same word in Psalms 16:10
nephesh and quoted in Acts 2:27 from Psalms 16:10 translates to psychē in the Greek is never translated as spirit to my knowledge. {This is the soul part} Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: {This is what made the soul living} and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
In Rom. 5:14 we find Adam the living soul was the figure, type of Jesus the Christ, "Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come,"
The Christ came in the flesh, a living soul. In Acts 13:34 we find that the resurrected Christ will no more return to corruption, "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David," Because he was resurrected a quickening Spirit. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;[a type of the one to come] the last Adam a quickening spirit. After the resurrection. Remember Jesus is the only who has been raised from the dead, verse 46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; [speaking of Jesus born of woman] and afterward [after the resurrection] that which is spiritual.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________









We will be judged? I think it is more like our sentence is rendered by the Judge. When we are resurrected, we will be either a Sheep or goat. We have been judged either "guilty" or "not guilty" when our soul leaves our body. In Luke 16, when Lazarus and the rich man died, one went up, the other down, as soon as they died. Some will be found "not guilty" and the other "guilty" as soon as they died. Now, they are in their respective "holding cell" till the Judge comes, and then those who died lost, will come out of hell, and tossed in the lake of fire, to torment forever. Those who died saved, they will be given their new spiritual body, and gathered into heaven, to be with God for eternity.

The soul, the person Jesus who lived a little over thirty three years then died for you and me, was not left in Hades. The soul Jesus, the person was resurrected from Hades after three days and three nights as a quickening Spirit no more to return to corruption. Flesh and bone spiritual man the Son of God a new creation in whose image we may obtain also by resurrection.)

 

[convicted1]

Brother Percho posted this:

(And all this time I thought Satan was lying when he said, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" Gen. 3:4) (He was right all along living souls don't die, and I must not have misunderstood what God meant when he said twice, "The soul that sins it shall die.")

They did die. But did God take and place them in a tomb somewhere, or did He just drive them out of the Garden? The soul died(seperation from God), and God placed a flaming sword and cherubim betwixt them(Adam and Eve) and the Tree of Life(Jesus). If the soul died like our physical, we would die also. The soul is what keeps our heart pumping, our lunging inhaling and exhaling, our brain to function. When the soul leaves the body, our physical body ceases to function(seperation of soul from body). So if our soul is dead in this fashion, we can not live altogether.

Brother Percho posted this:

(Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
On the Blue Letter Bible site there are 14 translations that I can read and understand and not a one of them translate "ruwach " Hebrew רוּחַ as soul.
OT soul, as living soul Gen. 2:7 nephesh being the same word in Psalms 16:10
nephesh and quoted in Acts 2:27 from Psalms 16:10 translates to psychē in the Greek is never translated as spirit to my knowledge. {This is the soul part} Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: {This is what made the soul living} and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
In Rom. 5:14 we find Adam the living soul was the figure, type of Jesus the Christ, "Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come,"
The Christ came in the flesh, a living soul. In Acts 13:34 we find that the resurrected Christ will no more return to corruption, "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, [now] no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David," Because he was resurrected a quickening Spirit. 1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;[a type of the one to come] the last Adam a quickening spirit. After the resurrection. Remember Jesus is the only who has been raised from the dead, verse 46 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; [speaking of Jesus born of woman] and afterward [after the resurrection] that which is spiritual.

Hebrew word for Spirit in Ecc. 12:7 ruwach רוּחַ


wind, breath, mind, spirit

a) breath

b) wind

1) of heaven

2) quarter (of wind), side

3) breath of air

4) air, gas

5) vain, empty thing

c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)


So, what you see here, is the inner man, the soul/spirit of a man. Man is two parts, and not three, as some suggest on here. We are flash and soul/spirit.


Greek word for spirit: pneuma πνεῦμα



1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)

b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")

c) never referred to as a depersonalised force

2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides

b) the soul


Another Greek word used for spirit: phantasma φάντασμα



1) an appearance

2) an apparition, spectre


So the two Greek words used for "spirit" are referring to the inner man, the soul. The two words are G4151(which is used the majority of the time), and G5326.


Brother Percho posted this:

The soul, the person Jesus who lived a little over thirty three years then died for you and me, was not left in Hades. The soul Jesus, the person was resurrected from Hades after three days and three nights as a quickening Spirit no more to return to corruption. Flesh and bone spiritual man the Son of God a new creation in whose image we may obtain also by resurrection.)

Jesus' soul never went to hell, but to God, when He stated, "Into thy hands I commend my Spirit". Jesus came forth on that third morning, correct. However, His soul never went to the grave, let alone hell. But that is an entirely different topic.

 

[Van]

Why imply that I said the flesh was the sin nature? Can you not read. Why not answer my questions? What are you doing, behaving like a Calvinist?

What did Jesus mean when He said the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak? Why not belly up to the challenge and present your position? What did Paul mean when he said make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. Why change the subject to me wanting it both ways.

Tell me your position, and save the smoke screen response.

I have yet to meet a Calvinist willing to actually present doctrinal discussion, now I fear you seem to have gone to the same church.

 

[Van]

Hi Convicted, see how many verses you can find that say Jesus became sin for us and how many say He became a sin offering for us. You have one variant of one verse. I have the same verse with another variant plus several more. Sound study requires my view. As far as the OT scapegoat type, yes Jesus really did take way our sin, the circumcision done without hands. But He did not become sin in order to nail them to the cross.

 

[percho]

Brother Percho posted this:



They did die. But did God take and place them in a tomb somewhere, or did He just drive them out of the Garden? The soul died(seperation from God), and God placed a flaming sword and cherubim betwixt them(Adam and Eve) and the Tree of Life(Jesus). If the soul died like our physical, we would die also. The soul is what keeps our heart pumping, our lunging inhaling and exhaling, our brain to function. When the soul leaves the body, our physical body ceases to function(seperation of soul from body). So if our soul is dead in this fashion, we can not live altogether.

Brother Percho posted this:




Hebrew word for Spirit in Ecc. 12:7 ruwach רוּחַ


wind, breath, mind, spirit

a) breath

b) wind

1) of heaven

2) quarter (of wind), side

3) breath of air

4) air, gas

5) vain, empty thing

c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)


So, what you see here, is the inner man, the soul/spirit of a man. Man is two parts, and not three, as some suggest on here. We are flash and soul/spirit.


Greek word for spirit: pneuma πνεῦμα



1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)

b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")

c) never referred to as a depersonalised force

2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated

a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides

b) the soul


Another Greek word used for spirit: phantasma φάντασμα



1) an appearance

2) an apparition, spectre


So the two Greek words used for "spirit" are referring to the inner man, the soul. The two words are G4151(which is used the majority of the time), and G5326.


Brother Percho posted this:


Jesus' soul never went to hell, but to God, when He stated, "Into thy hands I commend my Spirit". Jesus came forth on that third morning, correct. However, His soul never went to the grave, let alone hell. But that is an entirely different topic.

The man became dead in trespass and sin. Lit. Dying, Thou shall surly die. from YLT Dying, thou dost die.
He did not totally die that day but he begin the process. And the day the breath of the spirit of life left him, he Adam the once living soul was dead.

The bible never calls man the soul, spirit. Thayer quotes two verses he believes implies the soul apart from the body being spirit. Heb 12:23 and 1 Peter 3:19. Let me just say, you have to read between many lines to make them say that.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

It this doesn't say that because of the resurrection that the soul of Jesus was not left in Hades then just what does it say? And by the way it says soul not spirit. Three days and three nights before his resurrection Jesus had commended his spirit (that is the life giving spirit from God) into the hands of his Father.

 

[Van]

Is the new nature the Holy Spirit indwelling us?

In a word, NOPE.

We are a new creation, we have undergo the circumcision of Christ and have been made alive together with Christ.

So before we were "born again" when had our human Spirit with its separation from God, i.e. dead in its tresspasses, and its corruption due to the consequence of the Fall. When Adam's "eyes were opened" notice that Eve's eyes were also opened, so something spiritual happened to corrupt her. Subsequently, all mankind are conceived with a spiritualy corrupted human spirit. But it gets worse. Our human Spirit which is our core, our soul, our inner man, is clothed in flesh with its desires for comfort and security. Our flesh tempts us with its lusts, such as greed for a bigger house and a faster car which are manifestations of a love of money or what the world offers.

After we are born again, we still are clothed in flesh with its lusts, but our human spirit has been altered, circumcised by Christ and made alive together with Christ. The corruption has been removed. Now we are created for good works. And to help us grow more Christ like into Christian maturity, we have our helper, the indwelt Holy Spiirt.

 

[12strings]

see how many verses you can find that say Jesus became sin for us

2 Cor. 5:21 - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NASB)

2 Cor. 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)

Greek Rendering of the phrase in question: ὑπὲρ(for, on behalf of) ἡμῶν(us) ἁμαρτίαν(sin) ἐποίησεν(he made).

Every major greek text has the phrase: ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (Sin he made). In English we render it correctly as "He made (HIM...the one not knowing sin, ie, Jesus) ...SIN."


See also: 1 Peter 2:24 - And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Greek literally translated would read "The sins of us himself bore in the body of him on the tree."

 

[Van]

So the answer is ... one verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21. And a variant of the verse reads for a sin offering.

Now how many say Jesus was made a sin offering? Romans 8:3.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, [NASB]

Does 1 Peter 2:24 say Jesus became sin? Nope. Scripture says He bore our sins in His body. Thus like a scapegoat He carried way our sins.

Next we need to turn to Hebrews chapter 10. How does Hebrews 10:10 read? Does it not say we have been sanctified or made holy through the "sacrifice" of the body of Jesus. Then in verse 12 we have Jesus offering a single sacrifice for all sins. Then in verse 14 we get a single offering.

There is no need to go on. Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us.

 

[JesusFan]

2 Cor. 5:21 - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (NASB)

2 Cor. 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)

Greek Rendering of the phrase in question: ὑπὲρ(for, on behalf of) ἡμῶν(us) ἁμαρτίαν(sin) ἐποίησεν(he made).

Every major greek text has the phrase: ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (Sin he made). In English we render it correctly as "He made (HIM...the one not knowing sin, ie, Jesus) ...SIN."


See also: 1 Peter 2:24 - And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Greek literally translated would read "The sins of us himself bore in the body of him on the tree."

jesus was the lamb of God, who though bore our sins as our sacrifical representative before the Father NEVER ever became actual sin, never changed his sinless nature to being a sinner...

 

[12strings]

So the answer is ... one verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21. And a variant of the verse reads for a sin offering.

You keep saying this. What is this mystical variant you keep referring too?

I see no problem with simply accepting that this one verse DOES say Jesus was made to be sin for us, in addition to being an offering for us.

 

[percho]

So the answer is ... one verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21. And a variant of the verse reads for a sin offering.

Now how many say Jesus was made a sin offering? Romans 8:3.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, [NASB]

Does 1 Peter 2:24 say Jesus became sin? Nope. Scripture says He bore our sins in His body. Thus like a scapegoat He carried way our sins.

Next we need to turn to Hebrews chapter 10. How does Hebrews 10:10 read? Does it not say we have been sanctified or made holy through the "sacrifice" of the body of Jesus. Then in verse 12 we have Jesus offering a single sacrifice for all sins. Then in verse 14 we get a single offering.

There is no need to go on. Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us.

That variant has a footnote.

The variant for Rom. 8:3 has a footnote also.

Jesus bore our sins, true, however that in no way takes away the Greek that says he became sin for us.

 

[Van]

Reply to 12 Strings

You keep saying this. What is this mystical variant you keep referring too?

I see no problem with simply accepting that this one verse DOES say Jesus was made to be sin for us, in addition to being an offering for us.

I was apparently wrong to call it a variant, as if an alternate Greek word appeared in some texts. Rather the word that does appear, hamartian, can be translated either as "sin" or as sin offering depending on context. The NIV footnote reads "or sin offering" and that apparently is code (the "or") for an alternate translation choice.

In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.

Here is a blurb in support of my view:

"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).

From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"

 

[convicted1]

I was apparently wrong to call it a variant, as if an alternate Greek word appeared in some texts. Rather the word that does appear, hamartian, can be translated either as "sin" or as sin offering depending on context. The NIV footnote reads "or sin offering" and that apparently is code (the "or") for an alternate translation choice.

In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.

Here is a blurb in support of my view:

"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).

From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"

It is also foretold in Leviticus 16 how Jesus was compared to a goat who Aaron would lay his hands upon the goat's head, and confess all the sins of Israel, and then be led away by a fit man. That was a "type" of Christ in the OT. He became a "goat", or sin, for us, eventhough He knew no sin.

 

[12strings]

I was apparently wrong to call it a variant, as if an alternate Greek word appeared in some texts. Rather the word that does appear, hamartian, can be translated either as "sin" or as sin offering depending on context. The NIV footnote reads "or sin offering" and that apparently is code (the "or") for an alternate translation choice.

In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.

Here is a blurb in support of my view:

"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).

From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"

I simply find it odd, if "sin offering" is the correct translation, why the expert scholars of EVERY major translation of the Bible have decided to go with the WRONG one! Are you saying that though every major translation of the bible says "he became sin" or "was made to be sin" for us...that in fact it is not true...That they all have it wrong?

I have yet to find a preacher who would stand up in his pulpit and say not just "this verse is misstranslated in the ____ version...this other version gets it right." ....but to say "I know this verse says one thing, but you see, every bible translation we have has missed it...here is the correct translation...what these bibles say isn't even true.

***Caveat: The NLT does say "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,. However, The NLT is not one the translations considered to be the most literal, but rather a translation that leans in the direction of though-for-thought, and so no scholars I know use it as a source to correct miss-translations in other, older, more literal translations.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No you are not getting it! A Christian cannot practice sin. A Christian cannot fall into the practice of sin. It is impossible because the seed of God remains in them and they cannot practice sin.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

We are kept from the practice of sin by the seed of God. We are left to get rid of any sin we might do. Our practice is to live righteously. We might sin from time to time but it is not our practice.

Hi freeatlast,

Why should we believe that 1 John 3:9 should be understood as saying that "he cannot (practice) sin"?

I believe that John meant "he cannot sin" because we see him saying the following later in the same epistle:

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn.5:18).

​

Thanks!

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, recall that only one translation choice of one verse says sin, the other translation choice says sin offering, and many other verses say sin offering whereas no other verse say Jesus became sin.

So rather than point to all the translations that chose sin, which creates a paradox, how could Jesus be sin if He was a sinless sacrifice.

I often get into trouble because I point out that the majority view does not agree with the bible contextually considered, and this is another case. As a minimalist, what is the minimum Paul is teaching? That Jesus became a sin offering. To go beyond that based on one translation choice of one verse is unsound to the extreme.

 

[12strings]

Hi 12 Strings, recall that only one translation choice of one verse says sin, the other translation choice says sin offering, and many other verses say sin offering whereas no other verse say Jesus became sin.

Yet that one translation choice is the one chosen by nearly ALL of the Language and biblical experts.

So rather than point to all the translations that chose sin, which creates a paradox, how could Jesus be sin if He was a sinless sacrifice.

That's the whole point of the verse. He who knew no sin was made sin for us. We can debate what it means to "be sin" or "become sin", but I see no reason to deny what the verse actually says.

I often get into trouble because I point out that the majority view does not agree with the bible contextually considered, and this is another case. As a minimalist, what is the minimum Paul is teaching? That Jesus became a sin offering. To go beyond that based on one translation choice of one verse is unsound to the extreme.

So it is "unsound to the extreme" to accept a statement of scripture in which BOTH (1) a literal translation of the greek actually says, and (2) what nearly every biblical and language expert agrees is the correct translation? If this is true, how can we take at face value any verse of scripture? We are left waiting for a select few to come along and tell us that what the text says is actually wrong, and that it should say something else.

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, I do not think your "nearly every biblcal and language expert agrees" statement is valid. If you read the commentaries of Barnes and Clark, they present well studied views in total agreement with me. Remember the concept concordance. Over 90 times that same word is translated sin offering or offering for sin in the Septuigint. Which is to say a Hebrew word or phrase, which is translated into English as sin offering or offering for sin, is translated into the word found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. So a concordant translation, where the same idea is translated in the same way would read sin offering or offering for sin.

Here is the link to Barnes and others: http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/5-21.htm