Is the Penal Substitution Theory the most common theory throughout history?

[JonC]

Again... a false accusation.. In what way have I belittled your degrees? Show where I did that.

The Archangel

My point is that I in no way belittled your degrees. You are making assumptions.

That said, IF you believe that 1 John demands "propitiation" be defined as "bearing wrath" then I do question the validity of your credentials. We are talking about elementary things, about being faithful to the text first and then developing doctrine/theories.

 

[JonC]

Many MA degrees are in the 50-60 credit range. My M.Div was a minimum 91-credit degree. We do study counseling, sermon, prep, etc. but it is only after we have taken the full course (not "some") of theology. The "pastoral studies" are added on to what might be the regular fare for an MA. So, it's likely that my M.Div is at least as robust theologically as your MA.

The Archangel

Yes, I told you that I know what is involved in a MDiv. While I wish now that I had taken a route that included pastoral studies, I chose to concentrate on theology and Church history because that was/is my interest.

The only reason I brought up degrees was to say that it is a basic principle to be faithful to the text first. You can determine that Christ propitiated God's wrath by bearing it, but you do not have the right to declare that 1 John demands "propitiation" be defined as "bearing wrath". It's sloppy work, period.

 

[thatbrian]

How about a 6-month moratorium on PSA?

I don’t mind discussion.

But when what I share is ridiculed, then that limits discussion.

Can you find any OT prophecy, and any OT type in which models the suffering Messiah shown as the wrath of God poured out upon Him on the cross?

How about any NT statement?

Surely, for such to be the truth, the OT would abound with both prophetic and types as examples. Other major and even minor aspects of the crucifixion were expressed and exampled.

Surely, the statements of Christ, the apostles, and other writings in the NT would clearly and plainly set forth statements of support. For the death was of great consequence, and what greater then the total extinguishment of God’s wrath?

Such just doesn’t occur.


And this theory is claimed as Scriptural when in fact it has no true Scriptural support?

It exists from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[The Archangel]

My point is that I in no way belittled your degrees. You are making assumptions.

That said, IF you believe that 1 John demands "propitiation" be defined as "bearing wrath" then I do question the validity of your credentials. We are talking about elementary things, about being faithful to the text first and then developing doctrine/theories.

So... obviously... if someone disagrees with you and your take on something in scripture, his training or credentials are inferior to yours or invalid altogether. Yeah... we see what side of the bread your butter is on...

The Archangel

 

[utilyan]

Wrath on Jesus right..... So you guys are saying at one point the Trinity was broken the unity ceased.

You owe me 1000$. Don't have the money. Mom comes in and pays your bill, gives me 1000$

Did I forgive your debt? NOPE. Simply had your Mom pay.

I challenge/question God forgives no one under your understanding of penal substitution.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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