Is the Pope an Atheist?

[webdog]

Name me one Creationist (a reputable scientist who is a Christian) who believes in the big bang. The truth is that more and more evolutionists are pulling away from that theory, and that is what it is: theory, not fact. That is why it is so named. It goes against the laws of nature that order results from chaos. God is not a God of chaos but of order. It is anti-Biblical and anti-scientific. It falls into a category of scientism (not science) and the realm of faith and metaphysics, where true science can never venture. Science has limitations. The origin of the world is outside the realm of science. It is in the realm of faith. Science needs an observer by very definition. There was no one there to observe the big bang. It is not science.

For Christians, the heart of the issue really comes down to the question "Does the concept of a Big Bang type creation event undermine Scripture?" I could argue that the broad concept in fact does the opposite. The Big Bang theory validates the Christian concepts of a finite universe, an initial beginning and a creation of time and space.

Read more: http://www.comereason.org/sci_bible/sci040.asp#ixzz1ATPfxHNM
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Good, then demonstrate from the Bible that the Big Bang is taught in the Bible. Chapter and verse please.

If you are looking for the darwinistic "big bang", it does not exist. Since you fail to grasp anything but that concept, why bother? It is part of the literal 6 day creation in Genesis. The fact the universe is expanding is proof, just like an apple falling from a tree is proof of gravity. The Bible doesn't explain gravity, but it is real, and it is true.

There is no scientific fact in the big bang. Most evolutionists already admit that. That is why it is called "theory." If they are honest with themselves they will readily admit that it doesn't even hold up to the standard of an "hypothesis" using the "scientific method." It is not science at all. Look up the meaning of science. Science needs an observer. Who observed the big bang.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

If you never said it did why did you bring in this red herring. Your point is moot--irrelevant.

Usually what someone says when they lose a point of debate. The fact the universe is expanding is not a "red herring", it is verifiable proof that all creation has one single origin. That origins is God. If you do not believe that, maybe you don't hold to creationism like you think you do.

Again, the Big Bang is not fact. If it is, demonstrate it.
If God has a role in it, demonstrate it. Give chapter and verse.

"second verse, same as the first"

You did when you brought in your red herring about the universe expanding. What else would a person conclude?

Since I said nothing of new things being created, I didn't bring this into the discussion. The straw is what you use.

If God created all things through the Big Bang, then Genesis chapter one is null and void, and the Bible contradicts itself. Demonstrate through Scripture your theory of the Big Bang.

Another false dichotomy. I'm glad you feel qualified to tell God how He had to create the universe.

No, I am stating to you what the Big Bang theory results in. It is irresponsible scientism, an alternative to believing in God, even as Julian Huxley honestly and openly admitted.

No amount of reason will be good enough for you. I would suggest reading Lee Strobel's A Case For A Creator for others who hold to this view.

I will leave you with this: Dr. Robert Jastrow, Director Emeritus of Mount Wilson Observatory and founder of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies had written "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

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[DHK]

For Christians, the heart of the issue really comes down to the question "Does the concept of a Big Bang type creation event undermine Scripture?" I could argue that the broad concept in fact does the opposite. The Big Bang theory validates the Christian concepts of a finite universe, an initial beginning and a creation of time and space.

Your denial of Scripture is astounding.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth; not the big bang.
He then proceeds to tell how he did it. You deny all of this. It is something that I never would have expected from you.
"Does the concept of a Big Bang type creation event undermine Scripture?"
An unequivocal YES is the answer. That is not what the Scriptures state--anywhere (your link notwithstanding.) We do not interpret the Bible through science (so-called); rather we interpret science through the Bible. What is your final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine (and this is doctrine)? The Bible or science? You have chosen the latter. I feel sorry for you.

"Does the Big Bang theory validate the Christian concepts of a finite universe, an initial beginning and a creation of time and space?"
No, it doesn't. The Big Bang theory (as it is called, theory) does not validate anything but atheism.

If you are looking for the darwinistic "big bang", it does not exist. Since you fail to grasp anything but that concept, why bother? It is part of the literal 6 day creation in Genesis. The fact the universe is expanding is proof, just like an apple falling from a tree is proof of gravity. The Bible doesn't explain gravity, but it is real, and it is true.

This is an admission that you cannot demonstrate any validity of the Big Bang theory in the Bible. It isn't there is it? Your failure in this area is astounding and yet you accept it. Amazing! You fail to grasp the idea that an "expanding universe" is no proof at all, and that God could have created the universe with that "expansion" inherent in it. Have you limited the power of God?
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You have no idea what you are talking about.

I challenge you to look up the meaning of science and apply it to the Big Bang theory, and your rebuttal is that I have no idea what I am talking about. Now that is real intelligent, isn't it?

Usually what someone says when they lose a point of debate. The fact the universe is expanding is not a "red herring", it is verifiable proof that all creation has one single origin. That origins is God. If you do not believe that, maybe you don't hold to creationism like you think you do.

It is a red herring. You are limiting the power of God. The things you speak of you cannot demonstrate through the Bible. You allow so-called science to interpret the Bible for you. Your standard for your beliefs is no longer the Bible, but science. What has happened to your faith. You now have two authorities--science and the Bible, and right now you are leaning on the former. You have shoved your Bible aside.

"second verse, same as the first"

Sure, I'll repeat it again, as many times as it needs to be repeated. Demonstrate your beliefs through the Bible. That is my authority.

Since I said nothing of new things being created, I didn't bring this into the discussion. The straw is what you use.

You don't need to bring this point up again. It is the only conclusion that I could have inferred for the reason that you brought it up in the context in which you brought it up.

Another false dichotomy. I'm glad you feel qualified to tell God how He had to create the universe.

This is a matter of faith, or belief. God has told us how he created the universe. You have set that belief aside and have decided to believe something other than what God has said.

No amount of reason will be good enough for you. I would suggest reading Lee Strobel's A Case For A Creator for others who hold to this view.

Your right. I have studied this issue out thoroughly. I have a degree in biology. I have never encountered in my entire life a biological fact that has contradicted the Bible. Evolution is not based on fact. It is based on faith. It is an alternative religion.

 

[BobRyan]

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (Genesis 1:16)
The stars don't exist on earth Bob.
They exist in "the rest of the universe."

On day 4 God made "two great lights" not "a zillion-and-two".

God is also stated to be the creator of the stars - but we are not told when He made them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

On day 4 God made "two great lights" not "a zillion - and - two".

God is also stated to be the creator of the stars - but we are not told when He made them.

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (Genesis 1:16)
On the fourth day he made the sun, moon and stars.
I prefer to believe my Bible rather than your speculation.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (Genesis 1:17)

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (Genesis 1:19)

 

[BobRyan]

False dichotomy. The universe is expanding. That is a scientific fact...not theory. To expand means it is doing so from a singe fixed point. That point is God.

I may see a car heading down the road going west - does that mean that the car started its drive in China? I agree with extrapolating motion backwards to the point of origin - when all things were created but how far back do you go before you find that point of origin? Is it really reasonable to think that all of the universe existed as the size of a thimbal at one moment in time?

Given that God created this world - and our solar system about 6000 years ago - out here on the edge right of our Galaxy -- right where we are today. It is likely that God also created other galaxies etc in some kind of spread out position "at the start".

We know that God is eternal but matter is not. We know that therefore matter itself "came into being" at some point in time as a result of "God spoke and it was".

But how much more than that do we know?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (Genesis 1:16)
On the fourth day he made the sun, moon and stars.
I prefer to believe my Bible rather than your speculation.

And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (Genesis 1:17)

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (Genesis 1:19)

God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night

Count them.

One.

Two.

I prefer to believe the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night

Count them.

One.

Two.

I prefer to believe the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

You like to take verses out of context and only quote partial verses. I can do that too. The Bible teaches there is no God. Believe that??

There is no God. (Psalms 14:1)

This is your logic Bob--quoting incomplete verses to make a point.

 

[BobRyan]

Day 4 - God created TWO great lights - not "a zillion and two".

That is the clue that Genesis 1:1 is a general statement about God the creator of all the universe - (sinless and perfect) and Gen 1:2-2:3 is the doctrine on creation of THIS world and TWO great lights (Sun and moon) and ALL life on earth - in a literal 7 day week with the 7th day sanctified by God as the Sabbath, about 6000 years ago.

Thus in Heb 1:2 God is the creator of the "Worlds" KJV not merely this world (Is 45:18). The Angels existed before mankind.

The "gap" in the Bible does not indicate a sinful universe or death in the universe before the creation of earth.

This is not a case of "out of context". God is said to be the one who "made the stars also" in Genesis 1- but the text does not require that He made them on day 4.

On each of the 6 working days of Creation week "God said" what He specifically did --

On day 4 God said

14 Then God said, ""Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth''; and it was so.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; (He made the stars also).

Notice that even the phrase "He made" is not actually IN the text when it comes to the stars because God did not do that on day 4. On Day 4 God said what He did - "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;"

Then God tells us the number of lights made

16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night;

The only number given -- is TWO

Now in this form of Gap theory - as compared to those who think that Angels and the entire universe were created on day 4 - BOTH views accept that there is no sin or death before the fall of man and BOTH views accept a literal 7 day creation week for this earth that happened about 6,000 years ago.

The issue of the Pope and evolutionism when it comes "to atheist" has more to do with the Catholic idea of rejecting the Intelligent Design form of evolutionism. Rejecting I.D. evolutionism is a "distinctly atheist" POV that rejects Romans 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Day 4 - God created TWO great lights - not "a zillion and two".

Why is this subject being repeated on two different threads.
I will repeat what I said on the other thread.
Your denial of the Bible is astounding Bob.
Why is it so difficult to believe the simple statement of the Bible:
God created two great lights, and he made the stars also.

 

[The Word]

Read the full article here:
http://www.worthynews.com/top/news-yahoo-com-s-nm-20110106-ts_nm-us_pope_bigbang/


This is a contradiction. You can't believe both. Though he goes on to explain his belief in God, one cannot believe in the atheist's belief of the big bang and God at the same time.

There's no such thing as atheism to God. You're either one of his chosen few, the prophets, saints or Jesus, or you're an unbeliever. God never chose a man to be a pope to rule over his people. God can do that job all on his own but the prophets, Jesus and us saints became his servants to speak for him until we're killed by the unbelievers.

 

[DHK]

There's no such thing as atheism to God.

No, man has his own will. He chooses not to believe in God.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. (Psalms 14:1)