Oh so now we go from Catholic bashing to Calvinism bashing......I recognize the pattern. We are playing the game Who is Right with God, again! Silly creatures.
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Is the RCC a cult?
- Thread starter Robert William
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Have you ever noticed that "faith alone" appears only once in the entire Bible? "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24 (NASB).
It's not faith alone, it's grace through faith. By grace the few predestined elect are regenerated or are born from above, then and only then do they exercise a free will choice to embrace the gospel, not before. The works/fruit is an evidence of regeneration, they are NOT to earn salvation.
This is entirely erroneous. Within the NT, justification is linked to faith at multiple points. If you're looking for "by faith alone," well that depends on your translation. Anyways see the following:
John 3:16-18
Acts 16:31
Romans 3:28-30; 4:5; 5:1; 8:30; 9:30; 10:4; 11:6
1 Corinthians 1:30
Galatians 2:16, 21; 3:5-6, 24
Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 3:9
Titus 3:5
I can go on if you wish. Again, we're building a theology of justification and you must look at the entirety of the NT to find its position. Justification is by faith alone, not of works, and it is not of ourselves nor imputed by any man-made practice or religious observance.
Zenas said:
You just can't quote this passage without the context:
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
In James 2, vss. 24-23 are one sentence as are 25-26. I'd challenge you to read this passage as a works based justification. It just doesn't work coherently.
There is a slight problem with your view. It was unknown before 1500 AD.
As much as I am not a Catholic, that is what the Bible says. Luther wished it wasn't. He wanted to take it out. He didn't care much for the Book of James.
But that is not what you said. Here is what you said:
Actually it works perfectly. You are apparently blind to its contextual meaning because you reject a gospel of works and are unwilling to admit that faith without works is dead. Just look at what James said about Abraham, "As a result of the works, faith was perfected." So no, you can't say "faith alone" as so many here are wont to doing. Faith alone, without works, is dead.This is entirely erroneous. Within the NT, justification is linked to faith at multiple points. If you're looking for "by faith alone," well that depends on your translation. Anyways see the following:
John 3:16-18
Acts 16:31
Romans 3:28-30; 4:5; 5:1; 8:30; 9:30; 10:4; 11:6
1 Corinthians 1:30
Galatians 2:16, 21; 3:5-6, 24
Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 3:9
Titus 3:5
I can go on if you wish. Again, we're building a theology of justification and you must look at the entirety of the NT to find its position. Justification is by faith alone, not of works, and it is not of ourselves nor imputed by any man-made practice or religious observance.
You just can't quote this passage without the context:
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
In James 2, vss. 24-23 are one sentence as are 25-26. I'd challenge you to read this passage as a works based justification. It just doesn't work coherently.
My mistake, sorry, scripture says it's by Grace through faith.
If there is no Grace to regenerate there would never be any faith to embrace the gospel. ONLY the predestined elect are favored at their appointed time.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
How about THIS generation who wrote these scriptures??
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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If God did not show unmerited favor to predestine a few humans then Christ would not have went to the cross, but YHWH was merciful and gave a few to His Son, the Son then willingly atoned for those few chosen predestined ones. You should have seen that in all the verses I gave.
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Nope, didn't see it. Neither did the early churches/Christians, or anyone for 1500 years.
And I suppose you believe you are one of the predestined elect. It's interesting how 100% of all DOG folks believe they are included in that elite group.
And this will be my last reply to anything you have to say. I make it a point not to debate with Calvinists. I never even read anything in the Calvinism forum because I have absolutely no interest in anything they have to say.
....um but He does, He so loved the world He sent His only begotten Son to die and so redeem us.
Nobody DESERVES His love, but through grace we do receive His love.
John 3:16 is only referring to the world of believers, not all humans, if Jesus atoned for all humans then all humans would be eternally saved. Anybody who's sins are atoned for are seen by the Father as sinless because of what His Son did for them.
Scripture says His wrath abides on ALL unbelievers.
Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I am not a Calvinist.
I'm not a Calvinist and I don't have any problem debating Pelagians.
Predestination and election is undeniable since scripture makes it crystal clear.
Is predestination a biblical teaching?
by Matt Slick
Yes, predestination is biblical. Predestination is the teaching that God has, from all eternity, freely determined whatsoever shall come to pass. We find this in Ephesians 1:11 which says, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.” Notice Paul teaches that predestination occurs according to the purpose of God and that God works all things after His will. The "all things" means exactly that, all things.
The word predestination comes from the Greek proorivzw "prooridzo." The word occurs six times in six verses in the New Testament.
1. Acts 4:28, “to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.”
2. Romans 8:29-30, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
3. 1 Corinthians 2:7, “but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory.”
4. Ephesians 1:5, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.”
5. Ephesians 1:11, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”
By looking at these verses we can see that predestination reveals God's great sovereignty and right to do with His creation as He desires. But also we can see that predestination deals with salvation. Unfortunately, many Christians do not accept the biblical teaching on predestination. Many do not like the idea that God predestines people for salvation, but the fact is the Bible teaches it.
We might say that there are two main views concerning predestination. One is the view that God has foreknowledge; that is, he knew who would choose Him and those are the ones He predestined to salvation. The other idea is held by Calvinists who believe God sovereignly, of His own free will, predestined certain people to be saved, and His choice is not based upon looking into the future to see who would pick Him.
Either way, predestination is found in the Bible and it is a doctrine that we must accept. So, to find which view you think is most biblical, study the above list of verses in their context and see if you think that God predestines according to the expected future human choices or not.
Ive told you this a few times already Robert......the only way to teach a Catholic is from the inside......Pelegians not so much.
From the inside?? What does that mean?
Rcc's as the majority of religions are pelagian, they all preach that fallen man is able to make a free will for or against the gospel, when scripture teaches the opposite.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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