Is the RCC a cult?

[Darrell C]

The truth though is that the church of rome has another Gospel, has extra biblical revealtion/authority, so that makes them another bbilical cult, in same boat with SDA!

Correction: that is your truth.

That is not the truth for many Catholics who, as I said, are in large part ignorant of the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

If we were to quiz any given denominational fellowship concerning what their Church teaches...most would fail. We see evidence of "Baptists," for example, teaching pre-existing spirits (prior to conception), Annihilation, Soul Sleep, and a number of various odds and ends that could be properly determined to be heresy...all the time.

Just because you want to believe that all Catholics worship Mary, would kiss the Pope's ring, and deny Eternal Salvation...doesn't mean that they do. If it makes you feel better as a Christian to have someone to look down on, have at it. Me, I am going to find out what any particular member of any particular group believes before I comment.

Paul is a great example of fervor and zeal for the indoctrinated religion one is born into, and how GOd can convert a person to the truth. You will never be able to speak to Catholics while holding such a belligerent view, and the question is...

...do you care for those who, though religious, may be lost.

And I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic make the statement that before the Incarnation "Jesus was just the Son of God."

In regards to SDAs, their view of a prophetess being a legitimate source of revelation is not really any different than the views of many Charismatics, who also believe that revelation is still being given. But do we take that to mean that every Charismatic is lost, and that not one of them sincerely love God, and do what they can in the capacity they have?

As I said, I do not view the Catholic Church as a cult, but as just another religious group with various errors, and all error is serious. I don't think God will condemn the Catholic for "worshiping Mary" any more than He will condemn the Baptist for worshiping their Pastor.

God understands their ignorance, and the source of their ignorance. We should do the same, first examining our own selves.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Correction: that is your truth.

That is not the truth for many Catholics who, as I said, are in large part ignorant of the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

If we were to quiz any given denominational fellowship concerning what their Church teaches...most would fail. We see evidence of "Baptists," for example, teaching pre-existing spirits (prior to conception), Annihilation, Soul Sleep, and a number of various odds and ends that could be properly determined to be heresy...all the time.

Just because you want to believe that all Catholics worship Mary, would kiss the Pope's ring, and deny Eternal Salvation...doesn't mean that they do. If it makes you feel better as a Christian to have someone to look down on, have at it. Me, I am going to find out what any particular member of any particular group believes before I comment.

Paul is a great example of fervor and zeal for the indoctrinated religion one is born into, and how GOd can convert a person to the truth. You will never be able to speak to Catholics while holding such a belligerent view, and the question is...

...do you care for those who, though religious, may be lost.

And I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic make the statement that before the Incarnation "Jesus was just the Son of God."

In regards to SDAs, their view of a prophetess being a legitimate source of revelation is not really any different than the views of many Charismatics, who also believe that revelation is still being given. But do we take that to mean that every Charismatic is lost, and that not one of them sincerely love God, and do what they can in the capacity they have?

As I said, I do not view the Catholic Church as a cult, but as just another religious group with various errors, and all error is serious. I don't think God will condemn the Catholic for "worshiping Mary" any more than He will condemn the Baptist for worshiping their Pastor.

God understands their ignorance, and the source of their ignorance. We should do the same, first examining our own selves.


God bless.

Does the Church of Rome teach the real Gospel as Paul did, or a false one?
They deny the reformation, so one has to be right/wrong on this, correct?
And the SDA adds saved by Grace Faith and good works, as MUST observe the Sabbath and MUST see E white as a real prophetess!

 

[Vizio]

I say yes, she is an idolatrous cult preaching another gospel of salvation by works, and we have not yet touched on the idolatrous subject of Mariology.

Here is proof from their very own official encyclopedia.

The Roman Catholic cult in their Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that eternal life is attained by baptism, sacraments, and keeping the commandments.
1. CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."
2. CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
3. CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
This obviously faulty teaching in the CCC is hugely problematic since it contradicts Scripture.
1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
3. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
4. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
5. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
6. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
We have to ask questions.
1. Why is the RCC teaching that you attain salvation through observing the commandments when the Bible says we are saved apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28-30; 4:5; Gal. 2:16)?
2. Why would the Roman Catholic Church teach that you merit for yourself the grace needed for eternal life when that clearly contradicts Rom 11:6? See also Matt 7:21-23.
There is a great deal wrong with what the RCC teaches. We must look to God's word and not to what the RCC says we must do to be saved. Our salvation is not merited by our keeping the commandments! The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent.

Apostate? Yes. I am not sure I'd call it a cult, as cult seems to imply mind control and complete devotion. I grew up Catholic and have a lot of squishy Catholic family that are simply not devoted to their church as a cultist is.

But it absolutely has some horrible theology that has resulted in a lot of people going to hell.

 

[Darrell C]

Does the Church of Rome teach the real Gospel as Paul did, or a false one?

They teach a Gospel that is as confused as many groups out there. Do me a favor...and post a Catholic presentation of the Gospel, and show why you disagree with it.

Secondly, compare actual Catholic Doctrine with what the average Catholic understands about the Gospel.

Third...you give a Gospel presentation for examination.

They deny the reformation,

And?

Are you saying one must conform to the Reformers, who, I will remind you, set out to reform the Catholic Church...not revolutionize it.

I have visited a number of Protestant Churches that I could find very little difference from a Catholic Church. Went to one that taught Transubstantiation during Communion (Methodist).

, so one has to be right/wrong on this, correct?

Right/wrong on the Reformation?

Have you ever read Luther's 95 Theses?

And the SDA adds saved by Grace Faith and good works

So do a lot of Baptists, though they deny it.

Most teach a message of "saved by faith through grace." This is why they think Abraham, Moses, and David...were born again Christians.

as MUST observe the Sabbath and MUST see E white as a real prophetess!

As opposed to seeing Charles Spurgeon as "the prince of preachers?"

Most group have their teachers and "fathers" they are devoted to, and woe unto you if...you speak ill of them.

As far as observing the Sabbath, could you present SDA statements of faith that show one can lose their salvation if they do not observe the Sabbath, and then explain the numerous (most) other groups, Protestant or Evangelical, that teach that one can lose their salvation if "forsake the assembling of the brethren?"

But I do not see anyone calling them cults.

Explain that, Yeshua.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

But it absolutely has some horrible theology that has resulted in a lot of people going to hell.

I would lay the reason for dying in a separated state (lost), not on the teachers of any particular group (for God often saves men from their beginnings (i.e., how they grew up), but lay the charge directly to the individual themselves.

Salvation is accomplished by the Ministry of the Holy Spirit (the Comforter performing the convicting ministry He was sent to perform), and it is certain that a Just God gives every man opportunity to come into obedience to the Gospel.

But I do agree, there is some horrible Theology there, lol.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

They teach a Gospel that is as confused as many groups out there. Do me a favor...and post a Catholic presentation of the Gospel, and show why you disagree with it.

Secondly, compare actual Catholic Doctrine with what the average Catholic understands about the Gospel.

Third...you give a Gospel presentation for examination.




And?

Are you saying one must conform to the Reformers, who, I will remind you, set out to reform the Catholic Church...not revolutionize it.

I have visited a number of Protestant Churches that I could find very little difference from a Catholic Church. Went to one that taught Transubstantiation during Communion (Methodist).



Right/wrong on the Reformation?

Have you ever read Luther's 95 Theses?




So do a lot of Baptists, though they deny it.

Most teach a message of "saved by faith through grace." This is why they think Abraham, Moses, and David...were born again Christians.




As opposed to seeing Charles Spurgeon as "the prince of preachers?"

Most group have their teachers and "fathers" they are devoted to, and woe unto you if...you speak ill of them.

As far as observing the Sabbath, could you present SDA statements of faith that show one can lose their salvation if they do not observe the Sabbath, and then explain the numerous (most) other groups, Protestant or Evangelical, that teach that one can lose their salvation if "forsake the assembling of the brethren?"

But I do not see anyone calling them cults.

Explain that, Yeshua.


God bless.

Catholic Gospel is:
Be infant baptized, in order to have original Sin washed away, sins remiited, and the Holt Spirit now come to abide within you
Confirmation to pubically declare that one agrees with and is now a confirmed member of the one true Church
7 Sacraments of Grace means by which, when taken by the applicant, that person co operates with Grace of God, and made more like jesus, until graced enough/conformed enought o merit salvation in this life
Purgatory place with most go after death, when the flames purge away all reamining sin and sin gult , and then God can save and admit to heaven

Salvation found in only the true Mother Church
Any of that in the scriptures as being the Gospel?

 

[Darrell C]

I didn't ask for what your opinion of what the Catholic Gospel Message is, I asked for what Catholics say it is.

Catholic Gospel is:
Be infant baptized, in order to have original Sin washed away, sins remiited, and the Holt Spirit now come to abide within you

Numerous groups teach Baptismal Regeneration. It is an error not exclusive to Catholics.

Confirmation to pubically declare that one agrees with and is now a confirmed member of the one true Church

Most Baptist Churches require public Baptism. Not much difference.

7 Sacraments of Grace means by which, when taken by the applicant, that person co operates with Grace of God, and made more like jesus, until graced enough/conformed enought o merit salvation in this life

Many groups teach, erroneously, that men must "work out their salvation" and hold to differing "works" which either accomplish that, or evidence salvation.

Purgatory place with most go after death, when the flames purge away all reamining sin and sin gult , and then God can save and admit to heaven

Another error which, by the way...is not going to either save or damn anyone.

Men are saved by turning in faith to Jesus Christ (Whose Name you should learn to capitalize), and despite the fact of whether they are doctrinally astute or not...they are saved eternally.

If being an idiot precluded the possibility of salvation...most of us, if not all, would be in serious trouble. Because we are all idiots at some point or another. No-one begins their walk with Christ with more than the basic knowledge required by God Himself, and this is in large part the response to the Comforter's convicting ministry in our hearts.

Salvation found in only the true Mother Church

Again...most churches teach their church is correct. And try to "save" others from the group they are part of. The fact is that God can save men...even if they grow up Catholic. Even if they...grow up Baptist.

Any of that in the scriptures as being the Gospel?

Not really, but that is not the point, is it?

We are not saved by being part of a group, but by being a member of the Body of Christ. Perhaps, if you feel so strongly about it, you should spend more time trying to witness to Catholics concerning the error of their doctrine. A Chick Tract approach isn't going to help anyone.

Now, could you please give me the Gospel according to Yeshua1? I would like to examine your own approach.

And out of time so will come back to it.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I didn't ask for what your opinion of what the Catholic Gospel Message is, I asked for what Catholics say it is.




Numerous groups teach Baptismal Regeneration. It is an error not exclusive to Catholics.




Most Baptist Churches require public Baptism. Not much difference.




Many groups teach, erroneously, that men must "work out their salvation" and hold to differing "works" which either accomplish that, or evidence salvation.




Another error which, by the way...is not going to either save or damn anyone.

Men are saved by turning in faith to Jesus Christ (Whose Name you should learn to capitalize), and despite the fact of whether they are doctrinally astute or not...they are saved eternally.

If being an idiot precluded the possibility of salvation...most of us, if not all, would be in serious trouble. Because we are all idiots at some point or another. No-one begins their walk with Christ with more than the basic knowledge required by God Himself, and this is in large part the response to the Comforter's convicting ministry in our hearts.



Again...most churches teach their church is correct. And try to "save" others from the group they are part of. The fact is that God can save men...even if they grow up Catholic. Even if they...grow up Baptist.



Not really, but that is not the point, is it?

We are not saved by being part of a group, but by being a member of the Body of Christ. Perhaps, if you feel so strongly about it, you should spend more time trying to witness to Catholics concerning the error of their doctrine. A Chick Tract approach isn't going to help anyone.

Now, could you please give me the Gospel according to Yeshua1? I would like to examine your own approach.

And out of time so will come back to it.


God bless.

The Church of Rome has no Gospel that saves, so why defend it at all?

 

[Robert William]

Apostate? Yes. I am not sure I'd call it a cult, as cult seems to imply mind control and complete devotion. I grew up Catholic and have a lot of squishy Catholic family that are simply not devoted to their church as a cultist is.

But it absolutely has some horrible theology that has resulted in a lot of people going to hell.

Vizio, you need to get off the fence, we haven't even covered the topic of idolatry with the romanite religion, God killed millions for that sin, I see romanites bowing and praying to statues.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[Robert William]

All groups have error, and I do not view error as something that has less or greater. Error is error.

As far as I am concerned the similarities of many groups in regards to their error would demand we condemn...every group.

We can pat ourselves on the back and say "Boy, sure am glad I am not like them," but, if we try to elevate ourselves above others and think that God appreciates it then we ourselves are in error.

Secondly, as I said, we have to consider the members of these groups. And I can tell you I have spoken with Catholics that are far more conservative than some of the Protestants and Evangelicals I have spoken with.

Third, in regards to the Canon, I wouldn't worry yourself about that, because few members of any group bother to read the "Scripture" their group holds to, and even fewer bother to actually study in an in-depth manner. You will be held accountable for those Books you consider Scripture, likewise they too will be held accountable for the ones they recognize. Wouldn't be much different than reading a book about the Bible, believing what is said, and either holding to the teaching or violating it. If it is violated against your conscience, you become accountable. Doesn't matter if it is true or not.

As far as a group thinking they are the "True Church," perhaps you hadn't noticed, but that is pretty much the opinion of...every group. "Them Calvinists are heretics! Those Arminians are ignorant! Those Dispys are ignorant!"

How many of those statements have you made in your time here on the Forum?


God bless.

Yeshua1, When it comes to the gospel there is no room for compromise.

 

[Darrell C]

The Church of Rome has no Gospel that saves, so why defend it at all?

I'm not defending the Church of Rome...I'm defending those who belong to the Lord who might be associated with it.

You are still missing the point of what I have said, and bashing any group apart from addressing their doctrine, particularly when there is no real reason to, is just not something I view as profitable.

Still waiting for your Gospel Presentation. Since the theme is critique, join in the fun.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yeshua1, When it comes to the gospel there is no room for compromise.

And you observe compromise in my position?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not defending the Church of Rome...I'm defending those who belong to the Lord who might be associated with it.

You are still missing the point of what I have said, and bashing any group apart from addressing their doctrine, particularly when there is no real reason to, is just not something I view as profitable.

Still waiting for your Gospel Presentation. Since the theme is critique, join in the fun.




God bless.

Any saved in there need to obey the Lord and come out and be seoparate from them, to encourage others to get out also, for what has light to do with darkness?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1, When it comes to the gospel there is no room for compromise.

I agree, as we are talking about the real Gospel that saves and the real Jesus, as contrasted with one that cannot save!

 

[Vizio]

Vizio, you need to get off the fence, we haven't even covered the topic of idolatry with the romanite religion, God killed millions for that sin, I see romanites bowing and praying to statues.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exo 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Exo 20:6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Nowhere have I said that they are not idolatrous...or that they teach falsely.

I guess it would be good to define terms. What are you calling a cult? Is it just based on false teaching? If so--I absolutely agree with you. Is there a difference between cult and false teaching, in your mind?

 

[Vizio]

I would lay the reason for dying in a separated state (lost), not on the teachers of any particular group (for God often saves men from their beginnings (i.e., how they grew up), but lay the charge directly to the individual themselves.

Salvation is accomplished by the Ministry of the Holy Spirit (the Comforter performing the convicting ministry He was sent to perform), and it is certain that a Just God gives every man opportunity to come into obedience to the Gospel.

But I do agree, there is some horrible Theology there, lol.


God bless.

I think we largely agree. I see you quoted Sproul..so I'm going to assume you lean toward a belief in the sovereignty of God in regards to salvation. I do, as well. I believe that ultimately it is God that saves. Having said that, those that believe the official RCC doctrine and practice what is taught, I believe go to hell and are not saved.

 

[Darrell C]

Any saved in there need to obey the Lord and come out and be seoparate from them, to encourage others to get out also, for what has light to do with darkness?

Being in error in Doctrine, particularly when it is doctrine one has been taught from a child (or from salvation, for that matter)...is not walking in darkness. It is simply a matter of being childish in the Lord. And the problem we see with all groups is that new converts are not taught to study...they are taught the teachings of whatever System of Theology is in view. And when someone dares to question the validity of the teachings of the ones in leadership over them, the natural tendency is to deny that those we trust might be wrong.

You, for example, have a habit of making derisive remarks about "dispys." And the fact is that most Dispensational Theology comes far closer to Biblical truth than many of the systems embraced by many here. So shall I consider you to be walking in darkness...because you have this fault?


God bless.

 

[reformed_baptist]

I say yes, she is an idolatrous cult preaching another gospel of salvation by works, and we have not yet touched on the idolatrous subject of Mariology.

I think we have to be careful, technically Christianity is a cult - a cult is merely " a social group defined by their religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or common interest in a particular personality, object or goal"

 

[Darrell C]

I think we largely agree. I see you quoted Sproul..so I'm going to assume you lean toward a belief in the sovereignty of God in regards to salvation.

I do. Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God, man plays no part in it at all (from a spiritual/eternal perspective). It is true that man responds to the Gospel, which they are enlightened to only through the Ministry of the Comforter (for natural man apart from the enlightening of God cannot understand, nor receive the spiritual things of God), but, until God reveals the truth of their condition they are unaware that they are sinners, and that they need Christ.

So my usual statement is "The only free will man will ever exert in a salvific context is to...reject Christ." And that is the proclivity of natural man.

I do, as well. I believe that ultimately it is God that saves.

Wholly and fully. He reveals the truth to us in our natural state, and we do what every believer since Abel has done...we obey or disobey.

And what is significant in this Age is that God is revealing, through the Comforter, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was not revealed to men in previous Eras.

Having said that, those that believe the official RCC doctrine and practice what is taught, I believe go to hell and are not saved.

So if you and I discuss Biblical Doctrine, and either of us finds that the other holds to that which is not Biblical Doctrine...then we are going to Hell?

The singular point I have tried to make, Vizio, is that despite the fact that the Catholic Church teaches error, and even heresy (as practiced by its members (not all Catholics believe the same way, just as not all Baptists believe the same way)), we still have a human element that we have to deal with, which, in large part, focuses on the differences of belief among members of the Catholic Church.

But, I will go so far to say that I do not, at all, think God is going to send a Catholic to Hell because he/she prays to "saints," or "worships" Mary, or believes they are eating Christ flesh or drinking His blood at Communion. The reason I do not believe that is because men are not saved by what they do.

They are saved by what Christ has done.

As long as they embrace the basics (which I have had numerous Catholics I have witnessed to affirm), which essentially means they are trusting the Sacrifice of Christ for their eternal salvation, then what happens within their salvation is a matter of judgment concerning reward (or loss thereof).

If we concede that there are members of the Catholic Church that are saved, then we ask how it is they are saved. And just as you will find Baptists that teach doctrine that is distinguishably not Baptist (i.e., Soul Sleep, Annihilation, Pre-Existing spirits, etc.), which is a result of a member taking the teachings he has received and personalizing it (as most do), even so you are going to find Catholics that do not "worship Mary (or even greatly venerate her), do not embrace Transubstantiation, pray to saints or statues.

Evangelism is always a process that involves direct witness technique, we don't evangelize groups (generally). There are those whose ministries target groups, but we have to speak to people...one person at a time.

And even then, it is not ourselves that "save" them, but it is the individual's response to the convicting ministry of the Comforter, and it is to God, not the witness, that is turned to.

Now we ask, when we come into a public forum and make derisive comments about Catholics, just how much chance is there that a Catholic is going to come here to discuss Doctrine? What is more likely to happen, and we see it regularly on forums, is we get an offended Catholic who is here just to "set us straight," lol.

So if we want to discuss the errors of Catholicism, then we must present an arena where Catholics will feel comfortable coming, and then we can get down to the work.

And, sorry, did not mean to go on so long.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I think we have to be careful, technically Christianity is a cult - a cult is merely " a social group defined by their religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or common interest in a particular personality, object or goal"

Christianity is the very group which distinguishes which of the other groups are cults or not.

It is not a cult, in any sense of the word. Particularly in the context it is understood in a discussion like this.

We are not "merely a social group," we are a Body created by the salvific effort of God which steps outside of the temporal and physical, and deals in the Eternal and Spiritual.


God bless.