Is the RCC a cult?

[Robert William]

I havem but you seem to not get that the Roman Church is Apostate!

The Romanite religion is apostate preaching another gospel of salvation by works.


The Roman Catholic cult in their Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that eternal life is attained by baptism, sacraments, and keeping the commandments.

1. CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."

2. CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."

3. CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

This obviously faulty teaching in the CCC is hugely problematic since it contradicts Scripture.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

2. Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

3. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

4. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

5. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

6. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

We have to ask questions.

1. Why is the RCC teaching that you attain salvation through observing the commandments when the Bible says we are saved apart from the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28-30; 4:5; Gal. 2:16)?

2. Why would the Roman Catholic Church teach that you merit for yourself the grace needed for eternal life when that clearly contradicts Rom 11:6? See also Matt 7:21-23.

There is a great deal wrong with what the RCC teaches. We must look to God's word and not to what the RCC says we must do to be saved. Our salvation is not merited by our keeping the commandments! The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent.

 

[Robert William]

And I am talking about the actual members of the Catholic Faith, which is as diverse as Baptists are.

Not all Catholics deny the sufficiency of the Cross, just as not all Baptists believe tithing is a Christian practice.

That is the point you are missing.


God bless.

Amen Darrell, there are definitely a few born again believers in the Romanite religion, but they, as they study and mature will see the lies and leave.

 

[Robert William]

Throughout this thread I have stated that the RCC is a false system. I have never suggested that it was not extremely problematic, and outright apostate. There is no question that the teachings of the RCC are flat out heretical.

But the question that I have asked is what is the definition of a cult? Is it simply a false belief system? Or is it something else?

A cult is a religious group (but do not have to be religious1) that follows a particular theological system. From the view of Christianity a cult distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause it to be unattainable. For example, it is an essential doctrine of Christianity that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 44:8; 45:5) and that believing in a false God brings judgment (Exodus 20:1-6). If a group were to affirm that there is more than one God (i.e., Mormonism), then it would violate an essential doctrine and be outside the Christian faith. Another essential would be that Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and that to deny it means a person will die in his sins, John 8:24. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny Christ's deity and are, therefore, not Christian.

A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies.

Apostacy (falling away from the truth) is different than being a non-christian cult. Roman Catholicism, for example, is not a cult, but is apostate. It has fallen away from the true Christian faith by violating the teaching of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone which is something that all cults also do.

 

[Robert William]

What happens if they think they must also perform good works in their walk with Christ? Do they end up in Hell?




Could you put back in what is missing, I'd like to see this in its full context.

But in the meantime, I would ask one question: can you, as a Christian...violate the Ten Commandments? Is not committing no murder in fact obligatory for Christians? I would agree with the first statement that justified men are still bound to keep them, and in fact keep them with a better understanding than the view held by those who were under Law (i.e., rather than not just committing the act of physical murder, but understanding hating one's brother without cause is also considered murder and to be avoided).

Not that we are saved by this, but, because they are principles that God has not changed his mind on.

But I agree with your statement:




That is the bottom line. Most of the Doctrinal differences we see will be issues that impact reward (or the loss thereof), rather than one's salvation. I see little distinction between the legalistic Catholic and the Baptist that thinks if one stops going to Church they must not have been saved, lol. I think it was J. Vernon McGee whose wife use to cook Sunday Dinner on Saturday so she was not "working on the Sabbath." That type of mentality is something I have witnessed in numerous Baptists over the years. On a number of issues. perhaps one of the issues that could be said to dominate in a Baptist Arena is the matter of tithing: "If you say you have to 'keep the Law you are a heretic,' just remember...

...to make sure you tithe."

Darrell, I need to be careful how I judge, Darrell we both know that scripture teaches there will be many Lord Lord types.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Amen Darrell, there are definitely a few born again believers in the Romanite religion, but they, as they study and mature will see the lies and leave.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I have myself remained in a fellowship I was not 100% in agreement with concerning Theological issues, but remained because of the potential impact it could have on other members, namely my family members. Consider that there are many who grow up in certain faith groups who come to disagree with certain aspects of their beliefs, but, do not see that as a reason to leave the people they have known so long and come to love.

Seeing that I am not a fan of either Catholic or Protestant Theology (for I find similarities between the two, each having error I see as important), I am forced to concede that if those in Protestant groups should be considered saved despite their error...why not show the same latitude with Catholics, and simply discuss those errors with them personally when given the chance?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, I need to be careful how I judge, Darrell we both know that scripture teaches there will be many Lord Lord types.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And that is sort of the point, Robert: many think they are "Christians" because they go to church, tithe, sing in the choir, etc.

I think if we looked, we would find numerous Catholics who are not "religious" in their particular denomination, but "religious" in regards to visiting the fatherless and widows.

Like is have said, in every group there are people who do not know enough about what their faith teaches to be either saved or damned.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't necessarily agree with that. I have myself remained in a fellowship I was not 100% in agreement with concerning Theological issues, but remained because of the potential impact it could have on other members, namely my family members. Consider that there are many who grow up in certain faith groups who come to disagree with certain aspects of their beliefs, but, do not see that as a reason to leave the people they have known so long and come to love.

Seeing that I am not a fan of either Catholic or Protestant Theology (for I find similarities between the two, each having error I see as important), I am forced to concede that if those in Protestant groups should be considered saved despite their error...why not show the same latitude with Catholics, and simply discuss those errors with them personally when given the chance?


God bless.

The truth is that the RCC as an official organization, as a church, became Apostate right at time of Trent!

 

[Yeshua1]

A cult is a religious group (but do not have to be religious1) that follows a particular theological system. From the view of Christianity a cult distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause it to be unattainable. For example, it is an essential doctrine of Christianity that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 44:8; 45:5) and that believing in a false God brings judgment (Exodus 20:1-6). If a group were to affirm that there is more than one God (i.e., Mormonism), then it would violate an essential doctrine and be outside the Christian faith. Another essential would be that Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and that to deny it means a person will die in his sins, John 8:24. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny Christ's deity and are, therefore, not Christian.

A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, The Way International, and the Moonies.

Apostacy (falling away from the truth) is different than being a non-christian cult. Roman Catholicism, for example, is not a cult, but is apostate. It has fallen away from the true Christian faith by violating the teaching of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone which is something that all cults also do.

Catholics have been and are being saved by Grace of God, but the official doctrines of Rome are not biblical!

 

[Darrell C]

The truth is that the RCC as an official organization, as a church, became Apostate right at time of Trent!

Whereas I just look at them as having had their hinder parts on their shoulder and probably willing to say anything in retaliation to people who dared go against the leadership, lol.

That is still prevalent today.

All groups have error, so we either condemn all, or show the same latitude we do to groups we might see as close to our own understanding of Scripture.

I do not view someone thinking that they receive grace or that wafers and wine become literal flesh as any more absurd than thinking jibber jabber is the tongues of Angels or an heavenly language, or that God will bless us monetarily if we tithe, or that God has decided to do away with fulfilling Prophecy from the Old Testament. In fact, I would see our Eschatological views as having far greater impact on our Soteriology than some of the absurdities that arise out of tradition in all groups.

Let me ask you this, Yeshua, do you see a difference between the Catholics and the fellow teaching salvation by Torah in Other Denominations?

And have to get going, so hope everyone has a blessed day.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Whereas I just look at them as having had their hinder parts on their shoulder and probably willing to say anything in retaliation to people who dared go against the leadership, lol.

That is still prevalent today.

All groups have error, so we either condemn all, or show the same latitude we do to groups we might see as close to our own understanding of Scripture.

I do not view someone thinking that they receive grace or that wafers and wine become literal flesh as any more absurd than thinking jibber jabber is the tongues of Angels or an heavenly language, or that God will bless us monetarily if we tithe, or that God has decided to do away with fulfilling Prophecy from the Old Testament. In fact, I would see our Eschatological views as having far greater impact on our Soteriology than some of the absurdities that arise out of tradition in all groups.

Let me ask you this, Yeshua, do you see a difference between the Catholics and the fellow teaching salvation by Torah in Other Denominations?

And have to get going, so hope everyone has a blessed day.


God bless.

I still don't know if that person who keeps taking up the torah views jesus as being God yet!

 

[Darrell C]

I still don't know if that person who keeps taking up the torah views jesus as being God yet!

It seems pretty evident he wants us to think he does, but in reality he is denying this. That is why he can substitute logos with Torah, which is is both an adding and taking away of the Word of God no less heinous than that which is done by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, do you have any doubts that any of the Catholics you have spoken with believe that Jesus is God?

That's kind of the point: there is a difference between this fellow and the Catholics you debate with (and I am not saying there aren't Catholics that go to extremes, and teach absurdities which are heretical, such as Mary being the Co-Redemptrix).

But we wouldn't know what he believes, or what they believe, unless we speak to them on an individual basis. Some of Catholicism's official positions, as I have said, are open to interpretation, so while I do not excuse the error of Catholic Doctrine, neither do I give every Catholic a charge of belonging to a cult, as I would in regards to the religion of this fellow.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems pretty evident he wants us to think he does, but in reality he is denying this. That is why he can substitute logos with Torah, which is is both an adding and taking away of the Word of God no less heinous than that which is done by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, do you have any doubts that any of the Catholics you have spoken with believe that Jesus is God?

That's kind of the point: there is a difference between this fellow and the Catholics you debate with (and I am not saying there aren't Catholics that go to extremes, and teach absurdities which are heretical, such as Mary being the Co-Redemptrix).

But we wouldn't know what he believes, or what they believe, unless we speak to them on an individual basis. Some of Catholicism's official positions, as I have said, are open to interpretation, so while I do not excuse the error of Catholic Doctrine, neither do I give every Catholic a charge of belonging to a cult, as I would in regards to the religion of this fellow.


God bless.

The question is NOT though how they view Jesus, its how they they view the Cross and what God did there!

 

[Darrell C]

The question is NOT though how they view Jesus, its how they they view the Cross and what God did there!

The question is but ONE of the issues to consider.

So present Catholic statements concerning the Cross and what God did there that we might consider heresy. Not just what you say they believe, but the very official Doctrines you refer to often.

That is the only way we are going to determine if they are a cult or not.

Again, have to go, please wait before responding, or I'll never get out of here, lol.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

The question is but ONE of the issues to consider.

So present Catholic statements concerning the Cross and what God did there that we might consider heresy. Not just what you say they believe, but the very official Doctrines you refer to often.

That is the only way we are going to determine if they are a cult or not.

Again, have to go, please wait before responding, or I'll never get out of here, lol.


God bless.

They should really be more seen as being an Apostate Church!

 

[Robert William]

Catholics have been and are being saved by Grace of God, but the official doctrines of Rome are not biblical!

Amen, there are a few, and as they mature while studying the word, the Holy Spirit will lead them out of that false greatly idolatrous religion.

 

[Robert William]

I still don't know if that person who keeps taking up the torah views jesus as being God yet!

There is something not right about someone calling themselves God in the flesh, please change your name.

 

[Robert William]

It seems pretty evident he wants us to think he does, but in reality he is denying this. That is why he can substitute logos with Torah, which is is both an adding and taking away of the Word of God no less heinous than that which is done by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, do you have any doubts that any of the Catholics you have spoken with believe that Jesus is God?

That's kind of the point: there is a difference between this fellow and the Catholics you debate with (and I am not saying there aren't Catholics that go to extremes, and teach absurdities which are heretical, such as Mary being the Co-Redemptrix).

But we wouldn't know what he believes, or what they believe, unless we speak to them on an individual basis. Some of Catholicism's official positions, as I have said, are open to interpretation, so while I do not excuse the error of Catholic Doctrine, neither do I give every Catholic a charge of belonging to a cult, as I would in regards to the religion of this fellow.


God bless.

All who only agree with only the first five books of the Canon of 66 books have rejected and killed the Messiah and they are under a curse.

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[Robert William]

I still don't know if that person who keeps taking up the torah views jesus as being God yet!

The Jews have rejected the Messiah and are under the wrath of God. The Jews are no exemption.

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Jews have rejected the Messiah and are under the wrath of God. The Jews are no exemption.

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Yes, but the lord has also reserved unto Himself each generation a faithful remnant among hte jews who have received Yeshua as their Messiah!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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