IS the "Restainerr' mentioned By Apostle Paul the Holy Spirit?

[Tom Butler]

Beyond that brother, I step out..

I need to focus on some other things (family) but you know me.. enjoy and have fun. My our Father richly bless you brother, and confirm in your mind the truth He chooses to reveal to you, his son.

C-ya

Allan, I certainly yield to your knowledge of the Greek, and your points are well made.

I am not arguing for Michael as the restrainer. I am pointing out that the view that the HS is the restrainer is not unanimous. And I don't think it's necessary to hold that the HS leaves earth with the Church at the rapture.
He doesn't have to leave to remove his restraining hand.

Sorry, I missed your point. This is an area where my views are constantly influx.

Have a good weekend with your family, and I pray God's blessing on you church as it meets this Sunday.

 

[kyredneck]

Concerning the wrath that came upon Egypt we're told:

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, Wrath, and indignation, and trouble, A band of angels of evil. Ps 78:49

Concerning the wrath that came upon 'that evil generation' Christ gave this prophecy:

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

The eyewitness account that Josephus gives of what transpired among the Jews during the 66-70 AD war sheds much light on the essence of these verses. He calls it a ' distemper' that set in on them. They literally turned on one another and self destructed as foretold in other prophecies. What transpired among them was literally pure lawlessness and mayhem.

This article is as good as any I've read concerning this 'man of sin'. John of Gischala was one of the tyrants that wrecked so much destruction upon his own people, and he and his cohorts did indeed take over the temple and used it as a base to wreck their havoc upon the people:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html

Who the restrainer was is not clear to me. It could well have been an angel such as Michael who restrained that 'band of angels of evil' until the time came, or it could have been a man as this article suggests.

 

[revmwc]

Concerning the wrath that came upon Egypt we're told:

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, Wrath, and indignation, and trouble, A band of angels of evil. Ps 78:49

Concerning the wrath that came upon 'that evil generation' Christ gave this prophecy:

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

The eyewitness account that Josephus gives of what transpired among the Jews during the 66-70 AD war sheds much light on the essence of these verses. He calls it a ' distemper' that set in on them. They literally turned on one another and self destructed as foretold in other prophecies. What transpired among them was literally pure lawlessness and mayhem.

This article is as good as any I've read concerning this 'man of sin'. John of Gischala was one of the tyrants that wrecked so much destruction upon his own people, and he and his cohorts did indeed take over the temple and used it as a base to wreck their havoc upon the people:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html

Who the restrainer was is not clear to me. It could well have been an angel such as Michael who restrained that 'band of angels of evil' until the time came, or it could have been a man as this article suggests.

More answers and yet:
no answer for the fulfillment or non-fulfillment question in post #12 from you, guess you missed it and then missed the second request.

 

[kyredneck]

More answers and yet:
no answer for the fulfillment or non-fulfillment question in post #12 from you, guess you missed it and then missed the second request.

I've not really read the post, just breezed over it. You began it with a lame unprovable statement concerning the date of writing of the book of Jude. I'm not even remotely interested in a premise built upon such a false flimsy unsubstantiated statement.

 

[revmwc]

I've not really read the post, just breezed over it. You began it with a lame unprovable statement concerning the date of writing of the book of Jude. I'm not even remotely interested in a premise built upon such a false flimsy unsubstantiated statement.

The generation thst sees the fulfillment of the following we are told is the generation that will not pass away, so tell us when did the fulfillment of these occur?

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Notice verse 33 you have not explained it because verse 34 goes with it "when did they see ALL these things"? Because for the "this generation" to be the generation you say then ALL must have been fuflilled.
Let's look at these things and you tell us where you can tell us and show them ALL as fulfilled:

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I can answer this as fufilled in 70 A.D.


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Fulfilled or continuing today?


6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Fulfilled or continuing?

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Fufilled or continuing?

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Fuflfilled or continuing?

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Fulfilled or continuing?

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Fulfilled or continuing?

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Fulfilled or continuing?

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Fulfilled, continuing or still to be fulfilled?

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice the abomination must be standing in the Holy Place for 3 1/2 years before Christ returned, so this is either fulfilled and scripture should show it or yet to be fulfilled, it is not the destruction of the temple.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Fulfilled or yet to come?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Fulfilled or yet to come?
Keep in mind you have to have everything above fulfilled for this to be.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Does this apply for us or has it been fulfilled?

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Do we need to heed this or not worry about it?

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

There must be something that proves ALL these things have been fulfilled either scriptural records or historically or they have not been fulfilled because God is not the author of confussion but satan is. God would have clearly given us direction for our lives after this point if all this had been fulfilled instead what we have is:

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Again Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice verses 6 and 7 they fit your definition of Him having returned in 70 A.D. So are we all now living in the New Jerusalem?

And all this without a manuel.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Allan,
Re your post #33

Whoever the Restrainer is, I agree that he restrains the Anti-Christ.

My reading of II Thess 2 says the Restrainer is "taken out of the way." This is not the same as being "taken away," as most Dispys maintain. I don't see that it has to mean that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth (at the rapture of the Church), but that he simply stops restraining.

The fact that Michael the Archangel refused to contend with Satan over the body of Moses doesn't tell us much. In fact, in Rev. 12, we see Michael and his forces defeating Satan and his angels. But that doesn't tell us much either about the Restrainer.

I framed my previous post in the form of questions because I frankly don't know the answer. But there is a considerable body of opinion which holds that the Restrainer is Michael.

I just don't think we can automatically assume that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.

GE:

I believe "the restrainer", is Reformation Protestantism or TULIP / OSAS.

Does it still exist?

One of these days humanism (in all its forms) is going to take total control of mankind... that is obvious to any sound minded person.

 

[kyredneck]

The generation thst sees the fulfillment of the following we are told is the generation that will not pass away, so tell us when did the fulfillment of these occur?

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Notice verse 33 you have not explained it because verse 34 goes with it "when did they see ALL these things"? Because for the "this generation" to be the generation you say then ALL must have been fuflilled.
Let's look at these things and you tell us where you can tell us and show them ALL as fulfilled:

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I can answer this as fufilled in 70 A.D.


5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Fulfilled or continuing today?


6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Fulfilled or continuing?

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Fufilled or continuing?

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Fuflfilled or continuing?

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Fulfilled or continuing?

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Fulfilled or continuing?

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Fulfilled or continuing?

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Fulfilled, continuing or still to be fulfilled?

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice the abomination must be standing in the Holy Place for 3 1/2 years before Christ returned, so this is either fulfilled and scripture should show it or yet to be fulfilled, it is not the destruction of the temple.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Fulfilled or yet to come?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Fulfilled or yet to come?
Keep in mind you have to have everything above fulfilled for this to be.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Fulfilled or yet to come?

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Does this apply for us or has it been fulfilled?

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Do we need to heed this or not worry about it?

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

There must be something that proves ALL these things have been fulfilled either scriptural records or historically or they have not been fulfilled because God is not the author of confussion but satan is. God would have clearly given us direction for our lives after this point if all this had been fulfilled instead what we have is:

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Again Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice verses 6 and 7 they fit your definition of Him having returned in 70 A.D. So are we all now living in the New Jerusalem?

And all this without a manuel.

Do you honestly believe that folks are obligated to respond to you when you lob these gobs of copy & paste stuff at them? Get real.....

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you honestly believe that folks are obligated to respond to you when you lob these gobs of copy & paste stuff at them? Get real.....

Bro ky, with all due respect, you've done the exact same thing in supporting your preterist views, and asked me to consider all your cut and paste passages which I am doing.

Cut some slack and consider you've done the same!

How's them trot-lines?

 

[kyredneck]

Bro ky, with all due respect, you've done the exact same thing in supporting your preterist views, and asked me to consider all your cut and paste passages which I am doing.

Cut some slack and consider you've done the same!

How's them trot-lines?

Any c & p of mine will almost always be MY product along w/MY commentary. Not just gobs of scripture throwed out there as revmwc consistently does.

No trotline yet. State started releasing held back flood water from Buckhorn Lake that day, river rose two foot overnight, lots of trash, ain't no condition to be trotlining in; mom-in-law put in hospital yesterday, going blind, not taking care of her diabetes, good grief who knows if I'll ever get to fish again (just kidding, I'm really very close to getting it done; once the line's out it just becomes a daily routine, you just gotta get it out in the rite spot first)

 

[preacher4truth]

Any c & p of mine will almost always be MY product along w/MY commentary. Not just gobs of scripture throwed out there as revmwc consistently does.

No trotline yet. State started releasing held back flood water from Buckhorn Lake that day, river rose two foot overnight, lots of trash, ain't no condition to be trotlining in; mom-in-law put in hospital yesterday, going blind, not taking care of her diabetes, good grief who knows if I'll ever get to fish again (just kidding, I'm really very close to getting it done; once the line's out it just becomes a daily routine, you just gotta get it out in the rite spot first)

Well, grant the rev a little room too bro!

"two foot" insteada "two feet" be provin' you a gen-u-wine kyredneck!!!!

 

[kyredneck]

The generation thst sees the fulfillment of the following we are told is the generation that will not pass away, so tell us when did the fulfillment of these occur?.....

.....and this is 'the generation':

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1696714#post1696714

 

[kyredneck]

.....and this is 'the generation':

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1696714#post1696714

.....pssst...p4t, you like that better than c & p? (heheh)

 

[revmwc]

Do you honestly believe that folks are obligated to respond to you when you lob these gobs of copy & paste stuff at them? Get real.....

Your not obligated to answer anything you don't feel you ant to. Since you continually call me wrong I figured this would be a way for you to show the facts you claim as correct. I really didn't expect you would.

 

[revmwc]

.....and this is 'the generation':

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1696714#post1696714

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall see all these things, shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled. The "ye" applies to those who see these things fulfilled. My post #12 and then the rewrite tells us what things but you chose not to tell us if or when all those things have been fulfilled then you can continue to believe it as the generation living at that time. Since most of us can see that not all of these have been fulfilled and the generation that Jesus spoke this too has passed that leaves only one alternative which is the generation that see ALL these things be fulfilled.

 

[kyredneck]

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation that shall see all these things, shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled. The "ye" applies to those who see these things fulfilled.

No, the "ye" are these very disciples He's speaking to:

....there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?......Jn 21:22

......Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Christ told the High Priests at His illegal 'trial by night':
.....ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64 (Ananus and over 12,000 other priests perished at Jerusalem 70 AD)

I make it even easier for you to see revmwc with these close comparisons:

.....This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34
....there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

.....This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30
....there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

.....This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32
....there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

 

[kyredneck]

Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23: 34-36

 

[revmwc]

Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23: 34-36

I see you failed to show when the things to be fulfilled were fulfilled before the generation you claim would not pass away. You claim it meant the generation of Christ and the Disciples. Yet you tell us when all those things were going to be fulfilled have been before they passed away. Those would prove your point and you consistenetly fail to show when ALL those Things were fulfilled before that generation of Christ passed away.
Yet the futurist position shows perfectly that the "this Generation" will be the one that sees fulfillment, so thanks for proving our point.

 

[kyredneck]

I see you failed to show when the things to be fulfilled were fulfilled before the generation you claim would not pass away. You claim it meant the generation of Christ and the Disciples. Yet you tell us when all those things were going to be fulfilled have been before they passed away. Those would prove your point and you consistenetly fail to show when ALL those Things were fulfilled before that generation of Christ passed away.
Yet the futurist position shows perfectly that the "this Generation" will be the one that sees fulfillment, so thanks for proving our point.

Everything that Christ said was going to happen before that generation passed away occurred. It's that simple. I believe Christ.

Perhaps you should start your own thread on the Olivet Discourse. I may or may not participate, I'm going fishing.

Once again, back to the OP:

Concerning the wrath that came upon Egypt we're told:

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, Wrath, and indignation, and trouble, A band of angels of evil. Ps 78:49

Concerning the wrath that came upon 'that evil generation' Christ gave this prophecy:

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

The eyewitness account that Josephus gives of what transpired among the Jews during the 66-70 AD war sheds much light on the essence of these verses. He calls it a ' distemper' that set in on them. They literally turned on one another and self destructed as foretold in other prophecies. What transpired among them was literally pure lawlessness and mayhem.

This article is as good as any I've read concerning this 'man of sin'. John of Gischala was one of the tyrants that wrecked so much destruction upon his own people, and he and his cohorts did indeed take over the temple and used it as a base to wreck their havoc upon the people:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html

Who the restrainer was is not clear to me. It could well have been an angel such as Michael who restrained that 'band of angels of evil' until the time came, or it could have been a man as this article suggests.

 

[revmwc]

Everything that Christ said was going to happen before that generation passed away occurred. It's that simple. I believe Christ.

Perhaps you should start your own thread on the Olivet Discourse. I may or may not participate, I'm going fishing.

Once again, back to the OP:

Concerning the wrath that came upon Egypt we're told:

He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, Wrath, and indignation, and trouble, A band of angels of evil. Ps 78:49

Concerning the wrath that came upon 'that evil generation' Christ gave this prophecy:

But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not. Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12:43-45

The eyewitness account that Josephus gives of what transpired among the Jews during the 66-70 AD war sheds much light on the essence of these verses. He calls it a ' distemper' that set in on them. They literally turned on one another and self destructed as foretold in other prophecies. What transpired among them was literally pure lawlessness and mayhem.

This article is as good as any I've read concerning this 'man of sin'. John of Gischala was one of the tyrants that wrecked so much destruction upon his own people, and he and his cohorts did indeed take over the temple and used it as a base to wreck their havoc upon the people:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/2002_noe_man-of-sin.html

Who the restrainer was is not clear to me. It could well have been an angel such as Michael who restrained that 'band of angels of evil' until the time came, or it could have been a man as this article suggests.

You believe this happened:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The trumpet sounded and the elect have been gathered and are now in Heaven so what are we, Christ said:
Matthew 24: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

You believe Matthew 24:35 has happened which would also be this:

Revelation 22: 1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Which means we really don't exist or we are living in New Jerusalem today.

We know that that simply isn't true the New Jerusalem is not here yet, Christ Kingdom hasn't come in fulfillment of prophecy.
If you believe it all happened in 70 A.D. then you believe eternity is here and we are living in eternity and yet we see folks dieing everyday. Sorry Christ didn't promise this and that would mean the generation that would pass is the one that sees all these things in Matthew 24 fulfilled.

God still holding back the full tribulation and evil that is seen in Revelation makiong it yet to come.

 

[kyredneck]

Concerning your inquiry about false messiahs & prophets, it was the decievers and false prophets that 'prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty' and who persuaded the Jews to revolt to begin with.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1510882&highlight=False+prophets#post1510882

You believe this happened:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Tribes of the earth = tribes of the land (of Palestine). I assure you that Caiphus and Annus were not the only Jews of that generation that seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds in vengeance.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sound of the gospel trumpet has been gathering God's elect into His kingdom for over two millenia now.


New Jerusalem = New Covenant
---------------------------------------------------

Question for you revmwc. I've presented several 'imminent return' passages, as in Christ specifically says there's some living that won't die before He returns, this generation will not pass away, etc.

Can you produce scripture that states that the coming of the Son of Man was to be 'THOUSANDS' of years away as you assert?