I agree, so if God is the provider of life... a gift... the greater gift...do you think He is now suddenly going to deny Himself and His own methods, and not see to it that life is sustained and enabled to continue?
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Is the Sermon on the Mount for Today?
- Thread starter 1689Dave
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You know the answer to that question. I’m planning to move from New Jersey to Florida. When I do I plan on legally carrying a small hand gun. Not because I want to carry a firearm, but I plan to use it to protect myself and family if we are put in harms way.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If I did this, I would be telling God I'm not willing to do what Jesus says about non-violence, but would rather kill instead, trusting in the arm of the flesh.
Clearly you do not study scripture enough to understand the full mind of God... so you take Christ’s words out of context. You need discipleship.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus set the example believers followed. And none save Peter used violence to defend themselves. A gun tells God we are not serious about following Jesus.
What is a gun? And does the government provides laws governing the use of any weapon? And under whose sanctions are the
Guns used? So in short what you are claiming is that a child of God has zero capability under God’s law to protect and defend themselves against evil doer’s?
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus told us to put up the sword. It is the unbelieving magistrate's role, not the believer's role.
You are told to obey the magistrate.... and you don’t know if they are believers or not.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I always obey the magistrate unless he tells me to sin.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Jesus defended freedom by the Cross and He also upheld the Law of God by the same.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Jesus had more defense than all the earthly swords (weapons) combined.
Psa_34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
2Ki_6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Jas_5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
Which is better "SELF-defense" or GOD-defense:
Psa_3:3 But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.
Psa_28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.
Psa_33:20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.
Did Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah make a break out kung-fu session?
Did Daniel blow a hole through the lions?
Did John execute manuevers to deliver himself from the oil?
Paul tried 'SELF-defense' when he appealed to Caesar.
Jesus had more defense than all the earthly swords (weapons) combined.
Psa_34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
2Ki_6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Jas_5:6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
Which is better "SELF-defense" or GOD-defense:
Psa_3:3 But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head.
Psa_28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.
Psa_33:20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.
Did Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah make a break out kung-fu session?
Did Daniel blow a hole through the lions?
Did John execute manuevers to deliver himself from the oil?
Paul tried 'SELF-defense' when he appealed to Caesar.
I recall a young man fresh out of high school going down to Newark to sign up for college. While he waited, he went across the street to a convenience store to get a drink. There he was accosted by a miscreant, tortured and then killed. Some would say he was martyred however if I was there with a Ruger it would have been a different story.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
And yet God knew all of it, including your lack of presence there.
God has the power to resurrect and to truly right wrong, giving real justice.
The devil entered the Garden, took hostages, tortured a man and killed him. Yet you sound like Peter,
Mat_16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
The Pharisees were there to 'save him' calling him to come down and save himself.
Judas was there to make sure Jesus didn't do the wrong thing and took action into his own hands.
Peter picked up a weapon and hit the wrong guy in the wrong spot (the ear with which to hear the voice of Jesus to repent).
Jesus laid down His life, sacrificing Himself for others.
Guns misfire, aim misses, things obstruct.
God never misses, His aim is sure, and who can hold back His word from being fulfilled?
In fact, here is a powerpoint sermon on it - Link
Read the history of Zwingli.
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Stop right there. This situation in Newark was not a Devine plan for a Savior, it was a senseless murder of a young innocent student that was at the wrong place at the wrong time and suffered and died at the hands of a madman. There was no redemptive Grace here, just senseless murder. And I don’t have to study Zwingli to understand that had I been there, (or had someone been there that was armed) that that young man would be alive today and perhaps this is a cautionary tale for another time in the future. And good reason that I will leave the Police state of NJ for someplace that believes that protection is your own responsibility. Oh btw, I’m practiced in both handgun safety and marksmanship.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
James, the brother of John was taken by Herod a madman, and killed publicly.
Peter was captured by the cruel armies of the Romans, and publicly executed, as history records, upside down on a cross (thus tortured and finally death).
Paul, was beheaded by the Romans.
Many of the prophets of God were killed even by God's own professed people.
The Waldenses (Vaudois, etc) were thrown over cliffs (alive).
The 'St.' Bartholomews Day massacre...
etc, etc.
Cain killed Abel.
Stephen was stoned.
Tyndale strangled and burnt at the stake, etc.
George Wishart burnt alive at the stake.
Can you think of any other examples?
God's plan is bigger than yours.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Isa_57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Mat_10:23 EWF Version (might go something like this)
But when they persecute you in this city, pull out your pistol open fire and blaze em all down: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
You sound like these and they even used a Bible text for their justification:
Luk_9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But when they persecute you in this city, pull out your pistol open fire and blaze em all down: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
You sound like these and they even used a Bible text for their justification:
Luk_9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
I practice God's word.
Isa_54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
I don't know if you know this, but even the general populace of angels in Heaven had to be restrained from interferring with what took place with Jesus from the Garden to Calvary by the higher office angels (such as Gabriel, etc).
So it is not as if I do not understand where you are coming from, or even sympathize after a certain manner.
God Himself desires to step in, and yet there are larger questions involved, eternal things at stake, and satan's kingdom (in its fullness, just as his own character was) must be unmasked for what it really is. God therefore patiently waits and knows the perfect time to strike.
I know a two year old little girl who drowned, and was found face down in a pool. What good was your weapon?
There are persons killed by drunk drivers. What good was your weapon?
There are police officers, military personnel that had more weapons and firepower than you do, and yet perished by others with weapons, and even some without as much. (all it takes is one small round in the right place, we are truly fragile as pottery made of clay), and they had all the backup plus some humanly speaking, even armor, kevlar, helmets, etc. They still died. What more could your one gun have done there?
Many in the world suffer from injustice and cruel deaths and yet you cannot be in every place as God can be through His omniscience (Ps. 139). What good is your weapon to these?
Your arguments ultimately (though you cannot see it at the moment), are actually indirectly and logically conclusively blaming God.
That you could somehow rectify such situations while God somehow did not. It is the same argument as the hater of God, and yet just begun in a differing place. I am saying you are doing this unintentionally and unknowningly, not intentionally or knowingly, yet the result is the same at its end.
God has a larger weapons store than you:
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
So it is not as if I do not understand where you are coming from, or even sympathize after a certain manner.
God Himself desires to step in, and yet there are larger questions involved, eternal things at stake, and satan's kingdom (in its fullness, just as his own character was) must be unmasked for what it really is. God therefore patiently waits and knows the perfect time to strike.
I know a two year old little girl who drowned, and was found face down in a pool. What good was your weapon?
There are persons killed by drunk drivers. What good was your weapon?
There are police officers, military personnel that had more weapons and firepower than you do, and yet perished by others with weapons, and even some without as much. (all it takes is one small round in the right place, we are truly fragile as pottery made of clay), and they had all the backup plus some humanly speaking, even armor, kevlar, helmets, etc. They still died. What more could your one gun have done there?
Many in the world suffer from injustice and cruel deaths and yet you cannot be in every place as God can be through His omniscience (Ps. 139). What good is your weapon to these?
Your arguments ultimately (though you cannot see it at the moment), are actually indirectly and logically conclusively blaming God.
That you could somehow rectify such situations while God somehow did not. It is the same argument as the hater of God, and yet just begun in a differing place. I am saying you are doing this unintentionally and unknowningly, not intentionally or knowingly, yet the result is the same at its end.
God has a larger weapons store than you:
Job 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
What’s Gods plan, to murder people?
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