-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is the soul created?
- Thread starter Jim1999
- Start date
Brother Bob
New Member
Born with a sinful flesh because Adam sinned and so it has to die the natural death, but it does not have a sinful soul. If it had a sinful soul how could the Scripture be that says " the soul that sinneth shall die"?
Sorry, had a lot to do today but I love your thinking...
Of all my views that appear radical, I admit this will raise your eyebrows. But please hear me out before you judge. Then feel free to throw as many rocks at my theory as you like. This is how we grow.
If one watches the creation story carefully, one will see GOD performing two distinct actions. He first creates then he makes. Gen 1 says he created but there was nothing. Verse 3 is when he made by saying let there be then there was something tangible...
Compare that to Walt Disney who first created Mickey Mouse in his mind. At that time, Mickey was a character only in the mind of its creator. When he drew Mickey on the paper, he then made Mickey which was when others could share in his creation.
Using this logic, I believe GOD created not only the earth, but all there was and will be, from the beginning. The short version that I can expound more into if you like, is GOD is mind and we are living in the mind of GOD. Knowing this, I contend our souls are created with the initial creation but time has yet to meet with destiny. So your soul is there, but it is only created in GOD's mind. When time meets with destiny (birth) others can behold GODS creation which is you.
I do believe the soul is created free of sin. I do believe a baby is born free from sin. What we have at birth is a sin nature which is not sin, but the potential or "will" to sin. This sin is in our flesh and not our soul. This is why Paul says, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:...
Now let's look at Jesus, he was born human and divine. he had the potential to sin or satan would not have tempted him in the wilderness. What good would it have been to say Jesus stayed sin free if he did not have the ability to sin? I believe satan knows who can be tempted because he did not waste time with Job until GOD removed the hedge.
So what Jesus had (his human flesh) was a sin nature, yet he resisted this nature and did not sin which is why his blood remained sinless. I believe this sort of aligns with what Bob said about babies not sinning.
Now my turn, compare these two verses, one seems to say we go astray at birth but the other appears to say you can be sanctified in the womb. Thoughts?
PS 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Jim1999 said:
Of all my views that appear radical, I admit this will raise your eyebrows. But please hear me out before you judge. Then feel free to throw as many rocks at my theory as you like. This is how we grow.
If one watches the creation story carefully, one will see GOD performing two distinct actions. He first creates then he makes. Gen 1 says he created but there was nothing. Verse 3 is when he made by saying let there be then there was something tangible...
Compare that to Walt Disney who first created Mickey Mouse in his mind. At that time, Mickey was a character only in the mind of its creator. When he drew Mickey on the paper, he then made Mickey which was when others could share in his creation.
Using this logic, I believe GOD created not only the earth, but all there was and will be, from the beginning. The short version that I can expound more into if you like, is GOD is mind and we are living in the mind of GOD. Knowing this, I contend our souls are created with the initial creation but time has yet to meet with destiny. So your soul is there, but it is only created in GOD's mind. When time meets with destiny (birth) others can behold GODS creation which is you.
I do believe the soul is created free of sin. I do believe a baby is born free from sin. What we have at birth is a sin nature which is not sin, but the potential or "will" to sin. This sin is in our flesh and not our soul. This is why Paul says, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:...
Now let's look at Jesus, he was born human and divine. he had the potential to sin or satan would not have tempted him in the wilderness. What good would it have been to say Jesus stayed sin free if he did not have the ability to sin? I believe satan knows who can be tempted because he did not waste time with Job until GOD removed the hedge.
So what Jesus had (his human flesh) was a sin nature, yet he resisted this nature and did not sin which is why his blood remained sinless. I believe this sort of aligns with what Bob said about babies not sinning.
Now my turn, compare these two verses, one seems to say we go astray at birth but the other appears to say you can be sanctified in the womb. Thoughts?
PS 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
There are a lot of Mormons that think that.
But the point is - the Bible does not show it to be true.
However going down that road for a minute -- if God is eternal from eternity past, if God has always been all knowing and always foreknew your salvation from eternity past - then are you God - are you a being who is ALSO from "eternity past"?
I vote - no.
JFox, I have seen that site and agree it has some very good points. It does, however, fail in the sense that it says the traducianal theory is based in philosophy and not scripture. A.H. Strong, the Baptist theologian shows the opposite to be true and cites multiple scriptures in its support. The philosophically based view actually is proposed by such men as Kant and Muller (German theolgians). It deals with the pre-existant soul.
Let it be said, I would not make any of these theories a test of fellowship. I am not sure any of us can absolutely prove any one theory. It is an interesting study. In my original note, I mentioned that perhaps this is one of those things left to eternity.
I hope no one gets antsy with anyone elses theories, and just enjoys the good fellowship in friendly discussion. I am sure we will all learn just a little more about the magnitude of biblical studies. Thanks to everyone.
LeBuick. Thanks for your contribution. I can see you are thinking about it, and that was my aim from the beginning. I used to love being the devil's advocate when I was teaching at the university. Just when the students thought they had it worked out, I threw another question at them.............enjoy!
Cheers,
Jim
Let it be said, I would not make any of these theories a test of fellowship. I am not sure any of us can absolutely prove any one theory. It is an interesting study. In my original note, I mentioned that perhaps this is one of those things left to eternity.
I hope no one gets antsy with anyone elses theories, and just enjoys the good fellowship in friendly discussion. I am sure we will all learn just a little more about the magnitude of biblical studies. Thanks to everyone.
LeBuick. Thanks for your contribution. I can see you are thinking about it, and that was my aim from the beginning. I used to love being the devil's advocate when I was teaching at the university. Just when the students thought they had it worked out, I threw another question at them.............enjoy!
Cheers,
Jim
Jim1999 said:
Don't stop now, this was just getting good. At 79 I'm sure you have a few more minutes before you turn in for the night.
I'm still intered in your thoughts.
Now my turn, compare these two verses, one seems to say we go astray at birth but the other appears to say you can be sanctified in the womb. Thoughts?
PS 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
PS 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
----------------------------------------------------
Let me quote from the ISV, which happens to have a better English rendering:
"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies...."
The psalmist is talking about the rulers and just how unrighteous they are...even from the time you were born you have been wicked. One consideration is the foreknowledge of God, in that He knew beforehand how men would behave. The other thought is that men are truly born in sin and trespasses. That original sin question. I know people talk about the innocent baby thing, but frankly, I seem to remember the days of my children's babyhood. They were not always so innocent, even though they could not talk. Sometimes they were quite devious how theywould get attention for what they "wanted" and "when" they wanted it..give me. give me. give me....
Jer 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I chose you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointred you as a prophet to the nations."
God is in control and preselected us in His foreknowledge to the chosen one to perform a particular task.....He chose us,,sanctified us, separated me.....(Gal 1:15f; "God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb...."
These verses might fall under the theological study of God's providence.
Cheers,
Jim
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
----------------------------------------------------
Let me quote from the ISV, which happens to have a better English rendering:
"Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies...."
The psalmist is talking about the rulers and just how unrighteous they are...even from the time you were born you have been wicked. One consideration is the foreknowledge of God, in that He knew beforehand how men would behave. The other thought is that men are truly born in sin and trespasses. That original sin question. I know people talk about the innocent baby thing, but frankly, I seem to remember the days of my children's babyhood. They were not always so innocent, even though they could not talk. Sometimes they were quite devious how theywould get attention for what they "wanted" and "when" they wanted it..give me. give me. give me....
Jer 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I chose you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointred you as a prophet to the nations."
God is in control and preselected us in His foreknowledge to the chosen one to perform a particular task.....He chose us,,sanctified us, separated me.....(Gal 1:15f; "God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb...."
These verses might fall under the theological study of God's providence.
Cheers,
Jim
Jim1999 said:
So is this in the predestination sense of GOD placed sin in our path from birth? Or is this just to say we have free will yet GOD being all knowing knew what paths we would choose?
Jim1999 said:
Possibly, but I seem to remember in the jewish tradition, a child under the age of "accountability" was not considered capable of sinning. Certianly man has something sinful at birth as evident by your grand kinds, I guess this entire discussion is WHAT IS THAT SOMETHING?
Jim1999 said:
One of my students presented this to me, Jeremiah was a man. Like all men he had to have sinned. Since he was sanctified before birth, this means he sinned while also being sanctified.
There are many who contend, once coming to Christ we can no longer sin. I know Jeremiah was not covered by the blood of Christ, but does this mean he was above transgressing the law? i thought that was an interesting question...
The word "sanctified" does not mean without sin... There is a sense in which we are sanctified,,separated unto God,, as were the Old Testament saints, but our eventual sanctification is yet to come. Just as we were saved, we are being saved and we will ultimately be saved...where? In glory, when we are with God in heaven.
David sinned badly. He even committed murder, but he was a man after God's own heart.
I don't think there is any verse in scripture that says children are without sin. They may be protected under the Abrahamic covenant, symbolized by circumcision...but what of the girls? So, even circumcision is but a symbolic act.
The Law was given to show the standard of God, and not to be followed step by step for salvation. It is like God holding up a mirror to His people..."Now how do you fare, people, compared to Me?"
Redemption for all time is in the cross....from the cross, looking back, and from the cross, looking forward.........."blood sufficient for all..."
Cheers,
Jim
David sinned badly. He even committed murder, but he was a man after God's own heart.
I don't think there is any verse in scripture that says children are without sin. They may be protected under the Abrahamic covenant, symbolized by circumcision...but what of the girls? So, even circumcision is but a symbolic act.
The Law was given to show the standard of God, and not to be followed step by step for salvation. It is like God holding up a mirror to His people..."Now how do you fare, people, compared to Me?"
Redemption for all time is in the cross....from the cross, looking back, and from the cross, looking forward.........."blood sufficient for all..."
Cheers,
Jim
Jim1999 said:
This is indeed an interesting topic. I believe that God created me and that I didn't always exist. I don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul. That was taught by Tertullian, New Agers, and the Mormons. Elihu declared in the Book of Job, "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4 NASB. "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7 NASB. God gave me my soul, not my parents.
I dont think God is the author of sin because He creates human beings with the propensity to sin, anymore than when He created the Angels and they had a free will and Lucifer decided to be selfish.
Sin is the transgression of the Law, that is the only biblical definition of sin.
We arent born sinners. We have to be aware of what we are doing before it becomes sin.
Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
and sin is a choice WE make... If we couldnt help but to sin THEN it would be God's fault.
Claudia
Sin is the transgression of the Law, that is the only biblical definition of sin.
We arent born sinners. We have to be aware of what we are doing before it becomes sin.
Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
and sin is a choice WE make... If we couldnt help but to sin THEN it would be God's fault.
Claudia