Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Yes, it was both physical and spiritual. </font>[/QUOTE]So Adam surely died physically that day?
That quote is directly attributed to God. I'm sure you don't believe God to be a liar.
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Is Theistic Evolutionist an oxymoron?
- Thread starter Gold Dragon
- Start date
That quote is directly attributed to God. I'm sure you don't believe God to be a liar.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
That is one possible interpretation of the text. One that I disagree with and find wanting and inconsistent with scripture. Good thing we are Baptists who believe in Soul Liberty, eh?
A few responses:
1. Gold Dragon -- the quasar was in the middle of our galaxy, where it is now. Information from the redshift curve and tracking the changes in the atomic 'constants' tells us that atomic processes were incredibly faster at the beginning of the cosmos (whenever that was, actually) than they are now. The light from the quasar would have reached us in seconds, therefore, but at the same time the atomic processes being so fast would have caused the quasar to be noticeably dimming by day four, when God lit the sun. The Bible tells us God stretched out the heavens. This is why the Big Bang was ridiculed with that name -- it was refused at first because it was too much like Bible! Nevertheless the data show that there was an expansion. Science thinks it is still going on, the Bible says not. Be that as it may, the initial expansion was rapid and enormous and invested the fabric of space with incredible potential energy. Just like a stretched rubber band will, when shot, go very fast at first and then slow down as the potential energy becomes kinetic energy, the atomic processes in the early cosmos were incredibly fast as that potential energy came pouring into kinetic energy. So the early stars literally blew up like balloons very quickly as their atomic processes produced the light that is still pouring out of them. That is why the population II stars are identified by the red giants, while the younger population I stars are identified in the spiral arms and are associated with the bluer color.
2. bapmom and Andy T., exactly. There was no death until Adam sinned. This includes physical death. The actual Hebrew phrase in God's warning to Adam about the tree was "In dying, you will die." Not knowing what to do with this phrase and not understanding it, most translators have said something like "you will surely die." But two deaths are implied. We know spiritual death came immediately -- separation from God. Physical death began at that point, as well, though, somewhere deep in the cells, perhaps as the production of something called telomerase was slowed down, meaning, in the long run, that cells would no longer be able to reproduce themselves indefinitely. Cancer cells still produce their own telomerase, and so they are 'immortal'. But we can't do that. Physical death began for Adam at that point, and so was very real.
1. Gold Dragon -- the quasar was in the middle of our galaxy, where it is now. Information from the redshift curve and tracking the changes in the atomic 'constants' tells us that atomic processes were incredibly faster at the beginning of the cosmos (whenever that was, actually) than they are now. The light from the quasar would have reached us in seconds, therefore, but at the same time the atomic processes being so fast would have caused the quasar to be noticeably dimming by day four, when God lit the sun. The Bible tells us God stretched out the heavens. This is why the Big Bang was ridiculed with that name -- it was refused at first because it was too much like Bible! Nevertheless the data show that there was an expansion. Science thinks it is still going on, the Bible says not. Be that as it may, the initial expansion was rapid and enormous and invested the fabric of space with incredible potential energy. Just like a stretched rubber band will, when shot, go very fast at first and then slow down as the potential energy becomes kinetic energy, the atomic processes in the early cosmos were incredibly fast as that potential energy came pouring into kinetic energy. So the early stars literally blew up like balloons very quickly as their atomic processes produced the light that is still pouring out of them. That is why the population II stars are identified by the red giants, while the younger population I stars are identified in the spiral arms and are associated with the bluer color.
2. bapmom and Andy T., exactly. There was no death until Adam sinned. This includes physical death. The actual Hebrew phrase in God's warning to Adam about the tree was "In dying, you will die." Not knowing what to do with this phrase and not understanding it, most translators have said something like "you will surely die." But two deaths are implied. We know spiritual death came immediately -- separation from God. Physical death began at that point, as well, though, somewhere deep in the cells, perhaps as the production of something called telomerase was slowed down, meaning, in the long run, that cells would no longer be able to reproduce themselves indefinitely. Cancer cells still produce their own telomerase, and so they are 'immortal'. But we can't do that. Physical death began for Adam at that point, and so was very real.
That is one possible interpretation of the text. One that I disagree with and find wanting and inconsistent with scripture. Good thing we are Baptists who believe in Soul Liberty, eh?
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
You don't have to be in hell to be spiritually dead as Paul describes.
bold added
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Interesting theory. I'll have to investigate it a little more.
As for the Big Bang, I agree that it was initially opposed by the scientific community because it looked too much like biblical creation.
Which atomic "constants" do you believe are not constant and based on what evidence. I'm not disagreeing with you that what we currently understand to be physical constants may in fact be variable. But I'm just interest in which ones in particular and why.
Newton and Einstein were certainly brilliant men and seem to have done an excellent job of explaining how things work. However, Newton didn't invent gravity not did Einstein invent general relativity itself. Coming up with a theory, however brilliant, of how the telephone COULD have been invented without including Bell, does not change the fact that Bell invented the telephone. The attempt to explain the invention of the universe without including God is equally ludicrus, no matter how brilliant.
[ September 16, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Artimaeus ]
[ September 16, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Artimaeus ]
I disagree. Being in the image and likeness of God referrs to our spiritual makeup, not the number of eyes, arms, hands, lungs, and mancreas we have. </font>[/QUOTE]Johnv,
Read my earlier response on this - the problem with common descent is that is devalues man, and gives us no reason to think that man is any more valuable than other thing. So since man, being created in the image of God (spiritually), and man supposedly descended from common ancestors with all other life, why doesn't all other life bear the image of God, too? What makes man special?
I disagree. Being in the image and likeness of God referrs to our spiritual makeup, not the number of eyes, arms, hands, lungs, and mancreas we have. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think it can be stated fully that the physical image can be dismissed. I believe it to be both. Revelation 3 refers to Jesus as "the beginning of the creation of God." I believe Jesus has been around in bodily form forever. In the OT, I believe the reference to "The Angel of God" was Jesus Christ in bodily form. Our image most likely came from Him, as in order to take on the sin of man, He was fully man and God...forever.
Scripture doesn't say that Jesus was in bodily form forever. he was not in bodily form until he was concieved by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary.
The Angels of both the OT and NT are not phyical beings. They're heavenly beings typically taking on a physical appearance. When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit decended upon him in the form of a dove, but that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is a physical dove, des it?
The Angels of both the OT and NT are not phyical beings. They're heavenly beings typically taking on a physical appearance. When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit decended upon him in the form of a dove, but that doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is a physical dove, des it?
Explain, then, how Jacob "wresled" with a non physical being? How were the homosexuals in Sodom and Gamorah going to have sex with non physical beings? How did Abraham prepare meals for non physical beings?
While Scripture doesn't specifically say Jesus was / is in bodily form forever, we can look to His assension that He was / is. When we die, our bodies will be resurrected...physically. We will have renewed, perfect... but still physical...bodies. Jesus was the same yesterday, today and forever.
While Scripture doesn't specifically say Jesus was / is in bodily form forever, we can look to His assension that He was / is. When we die, our bodies will be resurrected...physically. We will have renewed, perfect... but still physical...bodies. Jesus was the same yesterday, today and forever.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
No. It is a proven and incontrovertible fact that evolution does occur. The only question is that of the extent to which evolution has and can occur. Most Christians and most other religious people believe that God has played some part in evolution. Very many Christians and very many other religious people and many scientists believe that God has played a very substantial part in evolution.
I was an evolutionary biologist before I was saved, and I know a little bit about the science that supports the various theories of evolution. I have never met or otherwise encountered anyone who understands evolutionary biology who did not admit that the state of the evidence as we now have it supports the general theory of evolution rather than special creation. As for “young earth science”—that is absolutely and incontrovertibly an oxymoron. The correct expression is "young earth hocus-pocus.”
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I agree. In 9,000,000,000,000,000 years there have been MILLIONS of intermediate fossils! I believe I recall seeing one of a giraffe with no neck, and a pygmy elephant with fins!
Evolution would be hysterical if it weren't so sad! </font>[/QUOTE]Like is said, “I have never met or otherwise encountered anyone who understands evolutionary biology who did not admit that the state of the evidence as we now have it supports the general theory of evolution rather than special creation.”