is there A Difference between Depravity and Inability of man?

[Skandelon]

Come on Skandelon, that's a completely different topic altogether.

Only in the mind of the one who has yet to put two and two together. :smilewinkgrin:

We're talking in context of believers being able to understand these "givens."

How can they understand something they haven't yet been given?

We were talking about the apostles abilities and knowledge. Not the ones you bring in to bolster your point, which is yet another strawman friend.

I have no idea what you are talking about and how you think that relates to what I've said.

 

[Skandelon]

Its nearly impossible Skan.

I'm starting to believe that. Maybe it does require a prior work of regeneration to get a Calvinist to understand what we believe? :laugh:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In the OT God hardened or blinded Pharaoh from the clear truth in order to accomplish the first passover.

We need to be clear that Pharaoh also hardened his own heart (Exod 8:15, 32; 9:34). The sin was his. He was not longing to let the Israelites go if only God had allowed him.

In the same way, in the NT God is hardening Israel from the clear truth in order to accomplish the real Passover.

In the same way it is/was the Jews own fault that they would not come to Christ (Acts 13:46), and of course not all Jews rejected Him (Acts 14:1).

It all makes since when you read Romans 8, 9, 10, and 11 as one whole passage that flows together. Paul explains it all very clearly.

Actually, it's all very difficult and far greater men than you or me have struggled with it. I don't think the way you are putting it is correct. Paul is teaching that there is a 'spiritual' Israel (Rom 9:6) comprised of both Jew and Gentile (v8) 'For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him, for, "Whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved"' (vs12-13).

Paul taught that God was patient with Israel for years ('holding out his hands to them' Rm 10:21), but they were unwilling, so they are being "cut off", "bound over to disobedience," "hardened," but are they cut off for good? Heaven FORBID! This is "temporary" and Paul has hope for their salvation as a result of his ministry to the Gentiles and the Jews growing jealous (Rm 11:14).

From 10:21, Paul is speaking of Israel as a nation, and from this nation there is an elect people who will be saved (11:4-5). But the Gospel has gone out into all the world and Israel as a nation has no privileges over and above the Gentiles who have been grafted in (11:22-23).

This is not about God hardening certain reprobates and saving a select number of people.

Actually, it's all about that (9:18 etc).

It's about God blinding Israel in their rebellion so as to ingraft the gentiles, but even that blinding process is an act of mercy, because in being "cut off/hardened" they may be provoked to envy and saved.

It's about Jew and Gentile believers being one people and the Gentiles not looking down on the Jews because many of them don't believe (11:17-21) because it may well be that many of them will come to faith in God's good time (11:24)

Paul summarizes this truth at the end of the discourse saying, "God bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all."

Exactly so. All men, both Jew and Gentile, have sinned (Rom 3:23) and are by nature disobedient to God, but God has arranged things so that He may display His mercy on a vast crowd of all peoples, both Jews and Gentiles.

Therefore I don't believe that you have explained away the very clear implication of verses like Rom 9:6-14.

[I have left on one side the question of 11:26 since you have not mentioned it]

Steve

 

[quantumfaith]

We need to be clear that Pharaoh also hardened his own heart (Exod 8:15, 32; 9:34). The sin was his. He was not longing to let the Israelites go if only God had allowed him.

In the same way it is/was the Jews own fault that they would not come to Christ (Acts 13:46), and of course not all Jews rejected Him (Acts 14:1).

Actually, it's all very difficult and far greater men than you or me have struggled with it. I don't think the way you are putting it is correct. Paul is teaching that there is a 'spiritual' Israel (Rom 9:6) comprised of both Jew and Gentile (v8) 'For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him, for, "Whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved"' (vs12-13).

From 10:21, Paul is speaking of Israel as a nation, and from this nation there is an elect people who will be saved (11:4-5). But the Gospel has gone out into all the world and Israel as a nation has no privileges over and above the Gentiles who have been grafted in (11:22-23).

Actually, it's all about that (9:18 etc).

It's about Jew and Gentile believers being one people and the Gentiles not looking down on the Jews because many of them don't believe (11:17-21) because it may well be that many of them will come to faith in God's good time (11:24)

Exactly so. All men, both Jew and Gentile, have sinned (Rom 3:23) and are by nature disobedient to God, but God has arranged things so that He may display His mercy on a vast crowd of all peoples, both Jews and Gentiles.

Therefore I don't believe that you have explained away the very clear implication of verses like Rom 9:6-14.

[I have left on one side the question of 11:26 since you have not mentioned it]

Steve

Steve, this is true....When and IF you consider this scripture from the "reformers" point of view. It could just as easily agree with the perspective put forth by Skandelon.

 

[quantumfaith]

Sorry to leave, but I must go teach the Binomial Theorem and Partial Fraction Decomposition.

 

[Skandelon]

We need to be clear that Pharaoh also hardened his own heart (Exod 8:15, 32; 9:34). The sin was his. He was not longing to let the Israelites go if only God had allowed him.

I totally agree. In the same manner, Israelites also hardened their own hearts and their sin was their own. I think it is a perfect parallel.

In the same way it is/was the Jews own fault that they would not come to Christ,

Again, we agree. This is the idea of self-hardening accompanied by judicial hardening. This is when someone freely rebells thus becoming "self-hardened" but God hides the truth from them so as to seal them in that already rebellious condition (judicial hardening). Illus: When you speed, it is YOUR SIN, but the cop may hid his presence in the bushes so that you will keep sinning so he can catch you. Both self and judicial hardening are represented in that illustration.

and of course not all Jews rejected Him (Acts 14:1).

Of course. A remnant were chosen by God to be given to the Son so that he could teach them and train them to be the foundation for the church and take the message to the rest of the world. It is through the Jews that the nations will hear.

Paul is teaching that there is a 'spiritual' Israel (Rom 9:6) comprised of both Jew and Gentile (v8) 'For there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call on Him, for, "Whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved"' (vs12-13).

I agree, but in general, "the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

This is the way Paul summarizes chapter 9, making his intent very clear. Israel, with the exception of the remnant chosen for a noble purpose, is being "cut off," "hardened," "blinded," while the Gentiles are being "grafted it," "shown mercy."

Continued below...

 

[Skandelon]

From 10:21, Paul is speaking of Israel as a nation, and from this nation there is an elect people who will be saved (11:4-5). But the Gospel has gone out into all the world and Israel as a nation has no privileges over and above the Gentiles who have been grafted in (11:22-23).

But Israel is being "cut off" too. What does that mean and why would it even be necessary if all are born totally depraved in the sense taught by Calvinists? They are being blinded temporally in order to bring about redemption and to "leave room for the Gentiles."

Actually, it's all about that (9:18 etc).

Yes, those being shown mercy is in reference to not being "hardened" "cut off". But you presume those are the "non-elect reprobates" destined to hell, so how can it be that those being hardened may be saved once provoked to envy? (Rm 11:14) How is it that those who were cut off/hardened can "leave their unbelief" and "be grafted back in?" (vs 23). And how is it that those grafted in may be cut off in the future (vs. 22)?