Is there a hierarchy in the trinity?

[jdlongmire]

I find your statement a very interesting one as everything I said in my post I have learned from Baptist preachers.

Here is what I found at Wikipeida:



That is not what I am saying at all, that is I believe in the trinity, the threeness of God being three ways he has show himself to us, but that God is one God. We do not worship three Gods. If you hold that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, distinct persons, person here being used in the modern sense of the word, than that person is guilty of polytheism ... and that is exactly what Moslems accuse Christian of believing.

The word used in scripture is 'persona' which in Paul's day meant 'mask.' It is mask in the sense of the word that you as are multiple simply because you are a different person to different people, i.e. friend, son, father, employee or friend, daughter, mother, employee, etc. A person can appear as many different persons to others simply because of their relationship to them.

But, as I said, all I have learned as stated in the post was taught to me by Baptist preachres.

Preachers can be in error. Hear the truth - God is one in essence, 3 distinct persons.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the definition of the Trinity given by Berkhof:[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A) There is in the Divine Being but one indivisible essence (ousia, essentia). B) In this one Divine Being there are three Persons or individual subsistences, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. C) The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons. D) The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the divine Being is marked by a certain definite order. E) There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguished. F) The Church confesses the Trinity to be a mystery beyond the comprehension of man.[3][/FONT]

See this for more.

 

[jdlongmire]

That is correct, God was shown in all three persona. Do not let youself be tricked by a deficienty in the English language here.

The deficiency is in the understanding, not the language. Read the article. You are in error.

 

[DHK]

Jesus was God on earth in the form of a human.
The Holy Spirit is God with us now.

You mean Jesus is not God now. That is heresy.
You mean the Holy Spirit did not exist as God before Christ. That also is heresy.

God the Father is spirit and is not hinderedd or trapped by time and place. God can be in all time in any place at any moment.

Yes He can. That holds true for God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, no matter what age they are in. Consider Christ in his human flesh:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--He was in heaven with the Father at the same time that He was on earth? How do you account for that?

Consider again the Father and Christ?
Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said,
56 Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Was Stephen delusional? He saw both the Father and the Son at the same place in the same time. Both were different persons. Christ still had his resurrected body. He saw him standing on the right hand of the throne of God.

As scripture shows all were present ... but God the father and God the Holy spirit are spirit and not limited by time nor place.

God the Father is spirit. But he spoke. And His voice was heard. He was there. His presence, as a person was made known to all. From WHO did the voice come from.
The dove is identified. "The Holy Spirit as a dove descended" The Holy Spirit made His presence known in a physical form, not a spirit form. One cannot see a spirit, but the saw the Holy Spirit. He made Himself known to all that were there.
And of course Christ was there.
All three of the persons were there in phyiscal form of one sort of another--all at the same time. And yet you deny this. You deny the very Word of God.

That is correct, God was shown in all three persona. Do not let youself be tricked by a deficienty in the English language here.

I am not the one being deceived.
When you redefine well known words to make up your own religion, you deceive yourself.

 

[Crabtownboy]

You mean Jesus is not God now. That is heresy.
You mean the Holy Spirit did not exist as God before Christ. That also is heresy.

I have no idea where you are coming up with this interpretation of what I wrote. We know from John 1:1 that all were present.

Yes He can. That holds true for God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, no matter what age they are in. Consider Christ in his human flesh:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--He was in heaven with the Father at the same time that He was on earth? How do you account for that?

Consider again the Father and Christ?
Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said,
56 Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Was Stephen delusional? He saw both the Father and the Son at the same place in the same time. Both were different persons. Christ still had his resurrected body. He saw him standing on the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus was God on earth in physical form. Steven did see both, but God showing himself at both is nothing to God. We must never put human limitations on God. What is totally impossible for us is childs play for God.

God the Father is spirit. But he spoke. And His voice was heard. He was there. His presence, as a person was made known to all. From WHO did the voice come from.
The dove is identified. "The Holy Spirit as a dove descended" The Holy Spirit made His presence known in a physical form, not a spirit form. One cannot see a spirit, but the saw the Holy Spirit. He made Himself known to all that were there.

Of course. But again, do not put human limitations on God. God could show self in a million ways at one time, but God would still be one God.

And of course Christ was there.
All three of the persons were there in phyiscal form of one sort of another--all at the same time. And yet you deny this. You deny the very Word of God.

You are making an assumption that all were there physically. That may not be true. God does not have to become a physical being to show himself. Again, do not try to limit God.

I am not the one being deceived.
When you redefine well known words to make up your own religion, you deceive yourself.

Look up the etymology of the word person. The Net Testament was written in Greek, not English. So to understand the real meaning of the scriptures we have to understand the root Greek word. Sadly, I am not an expert in any sense of the word when it comes to Greek. I know a few words only. But knowing those few words makes a big difference in how some passages are to be properly understoodl.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have no idea where you are coming up with this interpretation of what I wrote. We know from John 1:1 that all were present.



Jesus was God on earth in physical form. Steven did see both, but God showing himself at both is nothing to God. We must never put human limitations on God. What is totally impossible for us is childs play for God.



Of course. But again, do not put human limitations on God. God could show self in a million ways at one time, but God would still be one God.



You are making an assumption that all were there physically. That may not be true. God does not have to become a physical being to show himself. Again, do not try to limit God.



Look up the etymology of the word person. The Net Testament was written in Greek, not English. So to understand the real meaning of the scriptures we have to understand the root Greek word. Sadly, I am not an expert in any sense of the word when it comes to Greek. I know a few words only. But knowing those few words makes a big difference in how some passages are to be properly understoodl.

Like I said before. The Western Church believes in a positional hierachy but that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal and have the same essence.

The Eastern Chruches beleives the Essense Flows from the Father to the Son and the Holy Spirit. To believe that there are three distinct Gods is heresy. To Believe that Jesus is a Demurge is Heresy. To believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person of the Trinity is Heresy. This was disputed at the Nicean Council and the answers are there:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Like I said before. The Western Church believes in a positional hierachy but that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal and have the same essence.

The Eastern Chruches beleives the Essense Flows from the Father to the Son and the Holy Spirit. To believe that there are three distinct Gods is heresy. To Believe that Jesus is a Demurge is Heresy. To believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person of the Trinity is Heresy. This was disputed at the Nicean Council and the answers are there:

Not to nit-pick, but to ensure the class understands that the Creed you have posted is not the original Nicene Creed and no Eastern Church today, especially mine, would confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son…

Some Eastern Fathers would even go as far as considering the Filioque clause as being heresy.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[jdlongmire]

We must never put human limitations on God. What is totally impossible for us is childs play for God.

It is not limiting God to conform our thoughts to what He has revealed. It is limiting God to go outside His revelation.

That is - God cannot sin. Does that limit Him or glorify Him?

God cannot be other than what He is. Is that a limitation or a point of hope and assurance?

Do not create false dilemmas to prop up heresy.

Blessings.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not to nit-pick, but to ensure the class understands that the Creed you have posted is not the original Nicene Creed and no Eastern Church today, especially mine, would confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son…

Some Eastern Fathers would even go as far as considering the Filioque clause as being heresy.

ICXC NIKA
-

Yes the spanish clause really caused trouble between the western and eastern churches.

And I thought I mentioned that the eastern churches believe that the Son and Spirit essense flows from the Father which would give a hierachy in actuality rather than positionally. Is this correct?

 

[DHK]

I have no idea where you are coming up with this interpretation of what I wrote. We know from John 1:1 that all were present.

You previously said:

Jesus was God on earth in the form of a human.
The Holy Spirit is God with us now.

Those statements are heretical.

"Jesus WAS God, inferring that He ISN"T God right now."
"The Holy Spirit IS God with us now, inferring that Christ IS NOT with us right now, in spite of many promises that He is. " This is what you are saying.

The statemens are wrong; in fact heretical. They deny the omniscience of Christ and even the deity of Christ.

Jesus was God on earth in physical form. Steven did see both, but God showing himself at both is nothing to God. We must never put human limitations on God. What is totally impossible for us is childs play for God.

Then why are you putting human limitations on God. This is incredible that you should do?
Is the Holy Spirit simply a manifestation of God the Son?
Is that a limitation that you have put on God?
Of course it is?

Of course. But again, do not put human limitations on God. God could show self in a million ways at one time, but God would still be one God.

At the baptism of Christ, God manifested himself in three distince physical forms and you deny it.
Was God the Father present at the baptism?
Was he present in any type of physical form. If not, who is the one who is limiting God? You are. There is one God in three persons, each person co-equal with each other. You limit God by denying that truth. Why do you limit God?

You are making an assumption that all were there physically. That may not be true. God does not have to become a physical being to show himself. Again, do not try to limit God.

I read the Bible. The Bible testifies to the facts that you don't want to believe. They were there physically because the Bible says they were. They were there physically because the people at that time who physcially there heard, saw, and even touched them. When you can use your senses as such you know that it is physical. That is common sense. You deny the Bible, and are still putting limitations on God.

Look up the etymology of the word person. The Net Testament was written in Greek, not English. So to understand the real meaning of the scriptures we have to understand the root Greek word. Sadly, I am not an expert in any sense of the word when it comes to Greek. I know a few words only. But knowing those few words makes a big difference in how some passages are to be properly understoodl.

I don't have to look up the word person in the Greek.
I can see these persons in the Bible described for me.
When you redefine words you limit what the Bible says. You limit God. And you become part of a cult.
That is unfortunate, but it is the truth.

 

[Crabtownboy]

"Jesus WAS God, inferring that He ISN"T God right now."
"The Holy Spirit IS God with us now, inferring that Christ IS NOT with us right now, in spite of many promises that He is. " This is what you are saying.

Jesus was God in physical form while he [Jesus] was on earth. Jesus is not on the earth now but is with the Father and they are one. {John 1:1}

Jesus told the desciples that he had to leave and that another would be sent to them. That was and is the Holy Spirit ... God with us now.

They deny the omniscience of Christ and even the deity of Christ.

Not at all. You totally misunderstand my meaning. Jesus is one of the persona of God.

Is the Holy Spirit simply a manifestation of God the Son?

The Holy Spirit is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit ... but both are God as he has shown himself to us.

At the baptism of Christ, God manifested himself in three distince physical forms and you deny it.

That is your interpretation of scripture.

Was God the Father present at the baptism?

Was he present in any type of physical form.

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:16-17 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Matthew 17:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 17 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 1:17
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Note, no where does scripture say that the Father was there in a physical form.

There is one God in three persons, each person co-equal with each other. You limit God by denying that truth. Why do you limit God?

I agree that God is three persons but one God. You are making an error in not accepting what the original Greek says. That is a grave error.

I read the Bible. The Bible testifies to the facts that you don't want to believe. They were there physically because the Bible says they were. They were there physically because the people at that time who physcially there heard, saw, and even touched them.

People touched Jesus. I know of no place where scripture says anyone ever touched the Father or the Holy Spirit.

I don't have to look up the word person in the Greek.
I can see these persons in the Bible described for me.

To say I do not have to look up the word in Greek is to say, "Don't confuse me with the truth, my mind is made up. That is always dangersous.

When you redefine words you limit what the Bible says. You limit God. And you become part of a cult.

By not understanding what scripture really says because you will not study to understand what the Greek word was is sad. It is not that you are redefining words, it is that you are refusing to belive the original scripture.

 

[JustChristian]

We sing about "God in three persons, blessed Trinity." The way I see it God the Son was the only member of the Trinity that can be called a "person." What the exact nature of the divine part of the Son and the nature of the Father and the Holy Spirit is we can only speculate about based on what we're told in the Bible. One thing we do know is that we believe in ONE God, monotheism. How the three aspects/manifestations/persona, etc. that make up our one true God relate to each other I believe we really can't know on this side of eternity.

 

[DHK]

Jesus was God in physical form while he [Jesus] was on earth. Jesus is not on the earth now but is with the Father and they are one. {John 1:1}

You misunderstand John 1:1
Jesus came to earth: lived, died, was buried, and rose from the dead the third day (1Cor.15:3,4). He now sits on the right hand of the throne of God--in his physical body, not as a spirit. He said to the angels:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He will come again as they saw him go--physically. Why? He retains his physical body. He appeared to many in his physical body after he arose before his ascension. He still has a physical body now.

Jesus told the desciples that he had to leave and that another would be sent to them. That was and is the Holy Spirit ... God with us now.

Jesus also said: "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
He said: "I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the world, Amen." (Mat.28:20).
--He personally will be with us. He does not lie. He is God.
Is Jesus God? Yes or No. No clarification needed. Is Jesus Christ God?

Not at all. You totally misunderstand my meaning. Jesus is one of the persona of God.

Is Jesus Christ God? Not the persona of God--Is Jesus Christ God?

I don't believe I misunderstand you. You are denying the omniscience and deity of Christ. That was my statement. That statement will be verified by a simple yes or no answer to the question:
Is Jesus Christ God?

The Holy Spirit is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit ... but both are God as he has shown himself to us.

You evaded my question.
I asked: Is the Holy Spirit, according to your theology, a manifestation of the Son? Yes or No.

That is your interpretation of scripture.

I said:
At the baptism of Christ, God manifested himself in three distince physical forms and you deny it.
That is not an interpretation. That is what happened. And that is what you deny what happened.

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Matthew 3:16-17 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Matthew 17:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 17 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 1:17
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Note, no where does scripture say that the Father was there in a physical form.

A voice can only come from a physical presence. "No man hath seen God at any time." They heard his voice. They saw the dove (the Holy Spirit). They saw Christ. All three were there. The people heard God the Father.
They saw God the Holy Spirit.
They heard, saw, and even touched God the Son.
All three PERSONS of the Holy Spirit were present, and it cannot be denied.

I agree that God is three persons but one God. You are making an error in not accepting what the original Greek says. That is a grave error.

You are joking right? You don't even know what the Greek says yourself. You haven't even taken Greek by your own admission.
Here is some information for you.
The word "person" in the KJV is used 56 times. Only twice does it refer to Christ. And in those two times it uses two completely different Greek words, both of which are not the word that you referred to. Get your facts straight before you start spouting off about the Greek, which you obviously know nothing about.

People touched Jesus. I know of no place where scripture says anyone ever touched the Father or the Holy Spirit.

They didn't have to, and I didn't say they did. You misread my statement deliberately or perhaps it was a bit too ambiguous for your mind.
However a force cannot be lied to, and neither can a manifestation. The Holy Spirit is a person. A person can be lied to. Annanias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

You lie to people, to persons. The Holy Spirit is a person.

To say I do not have to look up the word in Greek is to say, "Don't confuse me with the truth, my mind is made up. That is always dangersous.

I didn't have to look the word up in the Greek because the Greek did not use the word person in relation to the Holy Spirit, just like the Greek did not use the word trinity, nor does the Greek use the word theology. But I suppose you don't study theology either.

When you redefine words you limit what the Bible says. You limit God. And you become part of a cult.

By not understanding what scripture really says because you will not study to understand what the Greek word was is sad. It is not that you are redefining words, it is that you are refusing to belive the original scripture.

You are very confused. You cannot study Greek words that are not in the NT.
"the person of the Holy Spirit" is not in the NT, just as "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit" is not in the NT. Your theology is not in the NT. You are making things up as you go along.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

And I thought I mentioned that the eastern churches believe that the Son and Spirit essense flows from the Father which would give a hierachy in actuality rather than positionally. Is this correct?

Yes, you did mention such and were correct. I was just pointing out to the class that the Creed you listed states that the Spirit not only flows from the Father, but also the Son…that’s a Roman Catholic addition to the Creed and not an Eastern Christian adaptation.

What the Eastern Churches teach is that the Trinity is three (3) divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia) are one essence (homoousios) and are coeternal.

The source of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit precedes. The Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction.

Georgory the Theologian said that to try and comprehend unbegottenness (Father), begottenness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity.

In XC
-

 

[Crabtownboy]

You misunderstand John 1:1
Jesus came to earth: lived, died, was buried, and rose from the dead the third day (1Cor.15:3,4). He now sits on the right hand of the throne of God--in his physical body, not as a spirit. He said to the angels:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He will come again as they saw him go--physically. Why? He retains his physical body. He appeared to many in his physical body after he arose before his ascension. He still has a physical body now.

Jesus also said: "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
He said: "I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the world, Amen." (Mat.28:20).
--He personally will be with us. He does not lie. He is God.
Is Jesus God? Yes or No. No clarification needed. Is Jesus Christ God?

Is Jesus Christ God? Not the persona of God--Is Jesus Christ God?

I don't believe I misunderstand you. You are denying the omniscience and deity of Christ. That was my statement. That statement will be verified by a simple yes or no answer to the question:
Is Jesus Christ God?
[/B]
You evaded my question.
I asked: Is the Holy Spirit, according to your theology, a manifestation of the Son? Yes or No.
[/B]
I said:
[/B] At the baptism of Christ, God manifested himself in three distince physical forms and you deny it.
That is not an interpretation. That is what happened. And that is what you deny what happened.

A voice can only come from a physical presence. "No man hath seen God at any time." They heard his voice. They saw the dove (the Holy Spirit). They saw Christ. All three were there. The people heard God the Father.
They saw God the Holy Spirit.
They heard, saw, and even touched God the Son.
All three PERSONS of the Holy Spirit were present, and it cannot be denied.
[/B]
You are joking right? You don't even know what the Greek says yourself. You haven't even taken Greek by your own admission.
Here is some information for you.
The word "person" in the KJV is used 56 times. Only twice does it refer to Christ. And in those two times it uses two completely different Greek words, both of which are not the word that you referred to. Get your facts straight before you start spouting off about the Greek, which you obviously know nothing about.
[/B]
They didn't have to, and I didn't say they did. You misread my statement deliberately or perhaps it was a bit too ambiguous for your mind.
However a force cannot be lied to, and neither can a manifestation. The Holy Spirit is a person. A person can be lied to. Annanias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

You lie to people, to persons. The Holy Spirit is a person.
[/B]
I didn't have to look the word up in the Greek because the Greek did not use the word person in relation to the Holy Spirit, just like the Greek did not use the word trinity, nor does the Greek use the word theology. But I suppose you don't study theology either.
[/B]


You are very confused. You cannot study Greek words that are not in the NT.
"the person of the Holy Spirit" is not in the NT, just as "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit" is not in the NT. Your theology is not in the NT. You are making things up as you go along.

Why are you becoming so impolite?

It is obvious that you cannot discuss this in a rational way. So, let's just drop it.

 

[DHK]

Why are you becoming so impolite?

It is obvious that you cannot discuss this in a rational way. So, let's just drop it.

I am not being impolite. I am being direct. I would like honest answers to honest questions. I don't appreciate answers that are evasive and side-step questions. Is there a reason why you cannot answer the simple direct questions given to you?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am not being impolite. I am being direct. I would like honest answers to honest questions. I don't appreciate answers that are evasive and side-step questions. Is there a reason why you cannot answer the simple direct questions given to you?

Yes and you are right. Jesus physically rose from the dead which gives up hope of our future resurrection. Amen (So be it)