Is there anything I can't do...........

[Hope of Glory]

However, when you preach as biblical truth something that is not in the Bible, then you are putting your words on the same level as Scripture. This also cheapens and weakens the teaching and preaching of others.

It's like passing along an email that if falsely stating that the government is going to force them to cancel the TV show "Touched by an Angel". Well, it's patently untrue, and you should research it before you pass it along. Why? What harm can it do? Gossip is gossip, and passing along one lie will bring into question everything else you say.

So, I stick to my conviction: Just because the Bible permits the drinking of alcohol, I voluntarily refrain for the reasons stated here. However, I will not teach and preach that drinking is a sin in itself, becuase the Bible does not say that it is.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

the drinking of alcoholic beverages was forbidden sometime after the allowing of it in the festivals mentioned in Deuteronomy 14. If it were still allowed, Solomon would not have warned 'Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup; when it moveth itself aright.'

I have stated before, and will state it again, that word 'Look' in the Hebrew means 'do not approve of, do not have experience with'. How can that be taken any way but don't drink alcoholic beverage?

 

[LadyEagle]

3 - Wanted wine That is, the wine was wanting or lacking. The word for wine oinos in Jesus' time, meant grape juice, fermented or unfermented re1408g. God made all things very good ge0131. Jesus would not here create fermented wine which the Scriptures warned against pr2001 and which would become a symbol of His blood 1co1125. Also the fermentation process of yeast was used as a symbol of false doctrine mt1611f., re1408.
Aristotle recognized two meanings for oinos. He recommended grape juice (glukus) because "though called wine (oinos) ... [it] does not have the effect of wine ... and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine." (Airstotle, Meterologica 387.b.9-13.) He lived 384-322 BC.
An ancient Roman writing described wine as best when fermentation was removed by boiling or straining. The Mishna (book of Jewish traditions) is against alcohol at weddings. The absence of complaint about this strengthens our idea that this was pure juice.
Running out of wine before the end of the feast time certainly was embarrassing.

http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/John/Jn02.htm

 

[LadyEagle]

How many Baptists have real wine served at your communion services? Shall we take a poll?

At the Last Supper, it would have been conflictual for Jesus to partake of unleavened bread and REAL wine (not grape juice) at the same time.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have seen this twisted "explanation" (almost exclusively from KJVO Baptists), with very little, if any, grounding in reality. If the Holy Spirit had meant "grape juice", why would he not have said "grape juice"?

You will not find many Greek scholars who will support this view.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

amen on the unleavened bread and REAL wine, Sister LadyEagle!

that is like eating a moon pie and drinking a diet coke

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Those that advocate alcohol in moderation are advocating sin in moderation.

Christ would not have produced alcohol to add to drunkenness if it were real wine. We read that the guests had 'well drunk' already. If it were alcoholic wine, then Jesus would have been contributing to drunkenness.

 

[Linda64]

Wine is a "generic" word in the Bible. It can mean "unfermented" or "fermented" depending on the context of the Scripture. Context is important. If you take scripture verses out of context, you can justify anything you want. This topic seems to be getting redundant--we just keep repeating the same things over and over again, but it does not change the facts--"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

The "cup" (notice, the verse Matthew 26:27 does not say "wine") at the Last Supper is a symbol of the "blood" of the "new testament"--His blood. Fermented wine has leaven. Jesus was the sinless Lamb of God, there was NO leaven/sin in His precious blood. Jesus did not drink, create, or give His disciples "fermented/leavened" wine.

Thank you LadyEagle--that was an excellent site.

 

[Shiloh]

StandingfirminChrist, since you are one of the most popular preachers on this board let me help you with something. Noah and Enoch were judgement preachers. They were the only men in the Bible that it is said they "walked with God". Keep Preaching Brother!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Wine is a "generic" word in the Bible.

It's not a "generic" word in the Greek. It can only be "generic" by interpretation, and not by translation. Using this method, you can make the Bible say absolutely anything you want it to.

Personally, I think the Holy Spirit said exactly what he meant.

 

[Linda64]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
I have seen this twisted "explanation" (almost exclusively from KJVO Baptists), with very little, if any, grounding in reality. If the Holy Spirit had meant "grape juice", why would he not have said "grape juice"?

You will not find many Greek scholars who will support this view.

Hope of Glory:

You need to read the thread "Definitions of KJV Only". Here it is--it was posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2004.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/4/2672.html?

Please don't clump all KJV Only into one group--as that post states.

Wine is a generic term, no matter how you want to cut it!!

 

[Hope of Glory]

Pehaps you didn't see the "mostly" that I posted to go along with what I stated. I have seen others try to twist what was actually said to make it say "grape juice". But, I have seen that argument mostly from KJV Onlyists.

In our association of churches, there are a couple of KJV Onlyist churches, and this is one of the discussions we frequently have, along with others.

But, no matter how you twist it, the Greek says "wine", not "grape juice". Wine is wine, even if the process has been refined today.

Interestingly, liquor was unknown then. It was discovered in the 8th or 9th century by an Arab, and they promptly banned it as being evil.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am not trying to be popular, just preaching the truth as it is in God's Word and will continue to do so as long as the Spirit gives me breath.

Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake; Rejoice and be exceeding glad. For great is your reward in heaven. For so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5

Continue in the faith, Brother Shiloh! Fight the good fight of faith, stay the course. Our reward is within this generation. Be encouraged, my Brother.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

liquor was known long before the 8th century. it was called str°ng drink all the way back in Proverbs 20.

 

[LadyEagle]

Beer and alcohol were important to the people of ancient Egypt and Summaria, also. In fact, the The Code of Hammurabi speaks of it. They even had taverns back then.

Now, getting back to the wine of the NT:

The popular belief that "Jesus was not a teetotaler," but a moderate drinker of fermented wine who even "miraculously ‘manufactured’ a high-quality (alcoholic) wine at Cana"3 and instituted the Last Supper with alcoholic wine,4 has no doubt influenced the drinking habits of millions of Christians around the world more than anything else that the Bible says about drinking. The reason is simple. The example and teachings of Christ are normative for Christian belief and practice. If Christ made, commended and used fermented wine, then there can hardly be anything intrinsically wrong with a moderate drinking of alcoholic beverages! Simply stated, "If wine was good enough for Jesus, it is good enough for me!"


Objective and Procedure. In view of the fundamental importance and far-reaching consequences of Christ’s example and teachings on drinking, we will closely examine in this chapter what the Gospels tell us about Jesus and wine. Our primary objective is to ascertain whether indeed Christ by His teachings and example sanctioned the use of fermented wine.

The chapter is divided into the following five wine-related stories or sayings:

(1) The Wedding at Cana: John 2:1-11.

(2) New Wine in New Wineskins: Luke 5:37-38; Mark 2:22.

(3) Is Old Wine is Better? Luke 5:39.

(4) Was Jesus a Glutton and a Drunkard? Matthew 11:19;

Luke 7:34.

(5) The Communion Wine: Matthew 26:26-29;

Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23.

Link to the Research Article

Unfortunately, since David Cloud, a Fundamental Baptist, we have been told - is an anathema around here, I am reduced to posting the above link from a non-Baptist who has researched the subject extensively including Greek.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

bang, bang, bang. The sound of people banging their heads on a wall.

 

[LadyEagle]

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
bang, bang, bang. The sound of people banging their heads on a wall.

This is quite true, SBC. But there are millions of people who lurk on the BB and they need to know why the majority of Fundamental Baptists believe the way we do on this topic. I post, but it is not to win the debate.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:

they need to know why the majority of Fundamental Baptists believe the way we do on this topic.

What proof do you have that the "majority" believe this way?

 

[LadyEagle]

Google it, if you don't believe me. Link me to some FB sites that say drinking alcohol is A-OK as long as it is done in moderation.

BTW, do you serve real wine at your communion in your church?