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Is there final perseverance in heaven?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jun 15, 2005.

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  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Love yes, but what is there to hope for when you are in the very presence of the provider of all there is? What reason do you require faith when you are face to face with your Savior, and Redeemer King, Jesus?
     
    #21 Wes Outwest, Jun 15, 2005
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    We will not be human in the sense of the term as used here in this life! I am convinced that since we are made in the image of God, that we will be spirit as God is spirit! There will be no flesh as we know it today, in heaven.

    When we are in heaven, we are directly with the source of all knowledge, and as "Children of God" is there anything that HE withhold's from us? Remember, once we are fully in "eternal life", we will be there for a long long looooooooonnnnnnnnggggg time!

    I suspect that your concept of Heaven is flawed. And since no one but Jesus has come from heaven, none of us will know in this lifetime exactly what our life in heaven may be like. But I don't think it will be a schoolhouse, or a social hall, but we will communicate openly and freely one with all others etc.     </font>[/QUOTE]I don't want to get off subject, but based on your post I would believe your concept of Heaven is flawed. The Bible clearly speaks of Heaven as an actual place, with cities, rivers, trees and renewed bodies. What does the Bible mean by a "new earth"? Earth as we know it, but totally new, free from sin and decay! Christ ascended into Heaven with a flesh and bone, albeit, perfect body. He will return in the same manner. We will not be spirits in Heaven, God is spirit. We are human, with human bodies that die currently, but that will all change. When you buy a "new" car, do you not expect it to have tires, windshield and steering wheel? That's how earth will be some day.
     
    #22 webdog, Jun 15, 2005
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Strongly disagree with your portrayal Webdog!
     
    #23 Wes Outwest, Jun 15, 2005
  4. Baptist Bro

    Baptist Bro New Member

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    Wes,

    "We will be spirit as God is spirit."

    You really need to study 1 Corinthians 15 as well as chapter 13. We are destined for resurrection, not a disembodied existence. And the fact that faith, hope and love go on forever is Paul's point, not mine.
     
    #24 Baptist Bro, Jun 15, 2005
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Disembodied existance is relevent only in a physical realm. In the spirit realm it would seem to me the spirit is the body!
     
    #25 Wes Outwest, Jun 15, 2005
  6. Baptist Bro

    Baptist Bro New Member

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    Wes,

    The resurrection of the body is Christianity 101; it is bedrock to the Faith. Again, you really need to study the Bible's teaching on the Incarnation and the Resurrection.
     
    #26 Baptist Bro, Jun 15, 2005
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Yes, According to Paul a bodily resurrection is Christianity 101.

    So is death and life after death a resurrection. When we die our flesh dies and our spirit separates from the flesh. Our flesh decomposes to its base elements, where does our spirit go?

    The spirit (human spirit) is the life of the flesh, without that human spirit the flesh is dead. So how does the spirit exist without a body in the place where it goes to await judgment?

    Does judgment occur immediatly upon separation of the spirit from the flesh? or is there a waiting place for spirit? What form of body does the spirit have while awaiting resurrection?

    You see there are options that Paul does not express, because I don't think Paul knew any more than we know about death and resurrection! So, a resurrection could be a change from physical realm into spiritual realm and still be a resurrection!

    That does not change my faith in Christ Jesus! He is God the son, the Messiah. He is my savior because he has given me every reason to have faith in Him, and I do!

    I simply do not accept the scriptures with the same Literal-ness that you do!
     
    #27 Wes Outwest, Jun 15, 2005
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    :cool:
     
    #28 johnp., Jun 15, 2005
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You can't lose your salvation either on earth, Heaven, or the New Heaven and New Earth after the return of Jesus Christ. However, I am not sure I agree with your remark regarding Lucifer. It seems to conflict with the following statement by Jesus Christ.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
     
    #29 OldRegular, Jun 15, 2005
  10. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    I'm going to respond to Wes' comments because I think they are the most thought-provoking from the opposing position:

    I was speaking figuratively of course. It is unclear if we will have any sort of time reference or if God will simply speak audibly to us when things need doing. My point was just that in some distant period after the judgement when the saints are in heaven.

    Christ told us that 'he that believeth hath everlasting life' (John 3) but you are telling me that everlasting life does not start at the point of rebirth- it starts at death. Everlasting life is within a believer here on earth, not just when he dies.

    External temptation is not necessary for sin. Satan sinned and there was no one there to tempt him. You are correct that there is no dying in heaven, but you have an inaccurate definition of death. Death is not when you cease to live- but rather separation from God. Who is to say God would not banish a believer in heaven if he sinned? Why can't he sin? Why is his eternal life so settled and secure in heaven but not on earth? Why does God allow final perseverance in heaven but not on earth?

    We're getting back into your flawed view that God cannot create a perfect being. You've said in other threads that Adam was not perfect either before he sinned. Please tell me why God cannot seem to create perfect men or angels? Satan did not sin because he was imperfect- he sinned because he was of a lesser state than God and became proud. At that point- he BECAME imperfect- but it was not so at the time of his creation unless God can create imperfection.

    Please prove from scripture that a) We will magically 'know all' when we get to heaven and b) how that will keep us from falling. You seem to have adopted a gnostic philosophy of Christianity that states 'to know all is to become perfect.' I find a far different philosphy from scripture namely- one who is perfect because he is clothed in Christ's righteousness.
     
    #30 whetstone, Jun 16, 2005
  11. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

    Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

    Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

    Mat 16:8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

    Luk 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith?

    Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

    Seems to me that lots of people (including Christ's own disciples) had little or no faith even IN the presence of Christ. compare this to your statements and reconsider.
     
    #31 whetstone, Jun 16, 2005
  12. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    First, no one can identify the "saints" because there is no (protestant) test for sainthood. Second, none have come back from the dfead to tell us.
     
    #32 billwald, Jun 16, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The spirit of "ALL Mankind" goes "BACK to God who GAVE IT" according to Solomon.

    You are right in all you say - in that the spirit is not "animated" without a Body. In God's presence it is "preserved" but not animated until He gives it another body as Paul points out in 2Cor 5:1-8

    Paul also points out in 1Cor 15 that there IS really another physical body (as He does in 2Cor 5) awaiting us at the resurrection. ONLY THEN (according to Paul) do humans have any claim at all to immortality.

    Check it out - NO claim at aLL for "MORTAL MAN" having "IMMORTALITY" before that 1Cor 15 event where the Mortal "PUTS ON Immortality".

    Man is never called "immortal man" in scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #33 BobRyan, Jun 17, 2005
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