Is there really a Calvinistic resurgence?

[DHK]

You'd be incorrect again. I used Job 2, then alluded to it again. We've been debating off of this since. :wavey:

The "faulty" definition is the Biblical definition. You said that, not me.

You never gave a Biblical definition. You gave your definition--not backed up by Scripture. What? One verse in all these pages? Where does your "Biblical" definition come from?

God never willed "Dahlmer's atrocious sins." It was not his will that those sins be committed. Dahlmer is responsible for his own actions. He will give account to God for his awful deeds; God will not give account for Him, for Dahlmer out of his own free will chose to commit those horrible atrocities. God never forced him to do it. He chose to commit those acts without the help of God. They have absolutely nothing to do with God's will, except to say that God's will is that men do not sin.

 

[preacher4truth]

MUST NEEDS BE means sin is necessary, it does not mean allowed, look in the dictionary.

If God were to force or compel man to love him, he would violate his own nature. God is love (1 Jn 4:8, 16)

You have children, would you think it love if someone kidnapped one of your children and forced them to love them?

The problem is that some folks want to exalt God's sovereignty at the expense of his other attributes like love, mercy, and judgment.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

The Pharisees were BIG on the law. They obeyed all the ordinances. But they were self righteous and judgmental. They despised common men who did indeed often sin.

People can often have "tunnel vision". They fixate on one thing to the exclusion of all others. The Pharisees were like this. Because they followed the laws and ordinances, they thought they fulfilled the law and exalted God. They overlooked God's great love and mercy for all men, even sinners.

Who has allowed this sin? However you start down this trail of forced love is beyond me. We're talking about God willing and decreeing and allowing sin.

Stay on topic?

 

[preacher4truth]

You never gave a Biblical definition. You gave your definition--not backed up by Scripture. What? One verse in all these pages? Where does your "Biblical" definition come from?

God never willed "Dahlmer's atrocious sins." It was not his will that those sins be committed. Dahlmer is responsible for his own actions. He will give account to God for his awful deeds; God will not give account for Him, for Dahlmer out of his own free will chose to commit those horrible atrocities. God never forced him to do it. He chose to commit those acts without the help of God. They have absolutely nothing to do with God's will, except to say that God's will is that men do not sin.

I gave the Biblical definition. Thelema. Go get your "books" and look it up yourself. Thelema isn't a Biblical definition? Tell me how this isn't "Biblical."

Some of us can talk a long time off of a verse, without page after page of out of context Scriptures as "others" cut and paste.

Who said Dahmer isn't responsible for his own actions? Who said God forced him to do it? So that God allowed it to happen, and me believing that, means this? Not so. This is how you and others attempt to put words in others mouths, then you start arguing against your own illogical and fallacious conclusions as if you are arguing a position they hold, that you made up all on your own. Congrats. :thumbsup:

Is the route of the cosmos following Gods ultimate will and purpose?

 

[Winman]

Who has allowed this sin? However you start down this trail of forced love is beyond me. We're talking about God willing and decreeing and allowing sin.

Stay on topic?

You keep saying God allows sin, I keep saying Jesus said sin is necessary. Do you not understand the difference between the words "allowed" and "necessary"?

Now, I have given you a verse from scripture that says sin is necessary, now how about you showing me a verse that says God allows sin.

 

[DHK]

I gave the Biblical definition. Thelema. Go get your "books" and look it up yourself. Thelema isn't a Biblical definition? Tell me how this isn't "Biblical."

Some of us can talk a long time off of a verse, without page after page of out of context Scriptures as "others" cut and paste.

Thelma is the definition of a word. So what? It does not give the theological meaning of the term in question. We can all look up words in Strong's. That is not what gives a definition of the term.

Who said Dahmer isn't responsible for his own actions? Who said God forced him to do it? So that God allowed it to happen, and me believing that, means this? Not so. This is how you and others attempt to put words in others mouths, then you start arguing against your own illogical and fallacious conclusions as if you are arguing a position they hold, that you made up all on your own. Congrats.

So, was Dahmer's actions God's determined will or God's permissive will?
Or do you believe there is a difference?
In a previous post I quoted your own words.
It is all God's will. Now you are backing off from what you previously said.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So what are you saying Preach. That God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit?

 

[quantumfaith]

You keep saying God allows sin, I keep saying Jesus said sin is necessary. Do you not understand the difference between the words "allowed" and "necessary"?

Now, I have given you a verse from scripture that says sin is necessary, now how about you showing me a verse that says God allows sin.

Winman, Why is sin necessary?

 

[preacher4truth]

You keep saying God allows sin, I keep saying Jesus said sin is necessary. Do you not understand the difference between the words "allowed" and "necessary"?

Now, I have given you a verse from scripture that says sin is necessary, now how about you showing me a verse that says God allows sin.

If it is necesarry then it must be allowed.

No need for the do you know the difference inference. This is what you do when you start to get twisted.

Act_2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Deteminate; to appoint and to decree (allow)

Do you now see how it is both necessary and allowed? I say it must be necessary due to the fact that if the princes of the world knew who He was, they would not have crucified him, 1 Corinthians 2:8. It is in accordance with Gods Wisdom. 1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Or do you still have "tunnel" vision and not see this because it sounds DoG?

Back to the forced love rabbit trail of illogical conclusions?

 

[preacher4truth]

So what are you saying Preach. That God predestinated everything we do, even the sin that we commit?

There's a fine line, but He certainly decreed and allowed it.

 

[quantumfaith]

There's a fine line, but He certainly decreed and allowed it.

PFT,

What do you mean, is the difference, if there is any from "decreeing" it and "allowing" it? I am "with you" , I think, on the allowing it thingy, but the decreeing thingy .....maybe not so much.

 

[preacher4truth]

PFT,

What do you mean, is the difference, if there is any from "decreeing" it and "allowing" it? I am "with you" , I think, on the allowing it thingy, but the decreeing thingy .....maybe not so much.

It sounds incriminating, but it isn't really, look it up to define it.

Also, in 1 Corinthians 2, see how all of this ascribes to His Wisdom, and that these things are to be spiritually understood. See especially 2:7,8.

It does mean to foreordain, and to give an authoritative order, it merely describes that He has allowed it.

 

[DHK]

It sounds incriminating, but it isn't really, look it up to define it.

Also, in 1 Corinthians 2, see how all of this ascribes to His Wisdom, and that these things are to be spiritually understood. See especially 2:7,8.

It does mean to foreordain, and to give an authoritative order, it merely describes that He has allowed it.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8)

The subject there is wisdom which God ordained.
It says nothing of the sinful acts of man being decreed.

 

[quantumfaith]

It sounds incriminating, but it isn't really, look it up to define it.

Also, in 1 Corinthians 2, see how all of this ascribes to His Wisdom, and that these things are to be spiritually understood. See especially 2:7,8.

It does mean to foreordain, and to give an authoritative order, it merely describes that He has allowed it.

Do any of the following, in your eyes, correctly define decree?

1. An authoritative order having the force of law.
2. Law The judgment of a court of equity, admiralty, probate, or divorce.
3. Roman Catholic Church
a. A doctrinal or disciplinary act of an ecumenical council.
b. An administrative act applying or interpreting articles of canon law.

 

[quantumfaith]

If a decree is made and its intentions carried out as a result, then the author of the decree is the author of the decree's fulfilled intentions.

Agree or Disagree?

 

[preacher4truth]

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Corinthians 2:7-8)

The subject there is wisdom which God ordained.
It says nothing of the sinful acts of man being decreed.

You wouldn't see it if shown to you.

 

[Winman]

If it is necesarry then it must be allowed.

No need for the do you know the difference inference. This is what you do when you start to get twisted.

Act_2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Deteminate; to appoint and to decree (allow)

Do you now see how it is both necessary and allowed? I say it must be necessary due to the fact that if the princes of the world knew who He was, they would not have crucified him, 1 Corinthians 2:8. It is in accordance with Gods Wisdom. 1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Or do you still have "tunnel" vision and not see this because it sounds DoG?

I would agree with you here. Satan attempted to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, and several times the Jews attempted to stone Jesus. Jesus escaped through their midst and prevented this. And in the garden Jesus clearly told his disciples he could have called on many legions of angels, so I would agree that he permitted himself at this time to be taken and crucified. That does not mean God determined or caused Satan or the Jews to have the desire to kill Jesus, that evil originated within themselves. I would say God is able to counter their evil to bring about good.

It is like a chess game, a master player can often foresee his opponent's stategy. He does not absolutely control his opponent's moves as his opponent is always free to move where he wills, but he can surely counter his moves.

 

[preacher4truth]

I would agree with you here. Satan attempted to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, and several times the Jews attempted to stone Jesus. Jesus escaped through their midst and prevented this. And in the garden Jesus clearly told his disciples he could have called on many legions of angels, so I would agree that he permitted himself at this time to be taken and crucified. That does not mean God determined or caused Satan or the Jews to have the desire to kill Jesus, that evil originated within themselves. I would say God is able to counter their evil to bring about good.

It is like a chess game, a master player can often foresee his opponent's stategy. He does not absolutely control his opponent's moves as his opponent is always free to move where he wills, but he can surely counter his moves.

Hold on a minute? Who put the thought in Judas heart? Who allows these minions to have this authority?

 

[Skandelon]

Hold on a minute? Who put the thought in Judas heart?

Good question.

Who put the evil intent in Judas' heart?

Who put the evil intent in the heart of Jeff Dahmer?

Who put the evil intent in the mind of Satan before his fall?

Who put the evil intent in the mind of Adam and Eve before they disobeyed?

I say they originated it as free moral agents, what do you say?

 

[preacher4truth]

Good question.

Who put the evil intent in Judas' heart?

Who put the evil intent in the heart of Jeff Dahmer?

Who put the evil intent in the mind of Satan before his fall?

Who put the evil intent in the mind of Adam and Eve before they disobeyed?

I say they originated it as free moral agents, what do you say?

I will one up you. What do the Scriptures say? Can they do this without His authority?

 

[Winman]

Hold on a minute? Who put the thought in Judas heart? Who allows these minions to have this authority?

Satan.

Jn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Just as a person cannot be saved unless he willingly receives Christ, the children of the devil are those who willingly receive Satan. It was of Judas's own free will that he did this.

But Jesus had long before this foresaw that Judas would betray him.

Jn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus knew well in advance that Judas would betray him, this does not mean he caused Judas to betray him.

Again, it is like chess, you may see your opponent's strategy. You may see your opponent is going after your queen. Being a master player you see this would allow you to move your bishop and place your opponent in checkmate.

Maybe a poor analogy, but this is how I see it. God did not allow Satan or the Jews to kill Jesus until the exact time, the Passover.

But the Jews attempted to kill Jesus several times before the appointed time. If this thought originated with God, why would God cause these sinful thoughts before the appointed time, and why would Jesus have to escape through the crowd thwarting his own Father's will?

So, you see, this evil intent to kill Jesus did not originate with God, but from Satan and the Jews themselves. God countered their evil intentions until the exact appointed time and then CHECKMATE!